#17 Zach Hackett: Journey to Financial Freedom. Paid Half of the Student Loan 62k in Two Years

[0:00] thank you so much zach um for accepting
[0:03] my invitation for this um this episode
[0:06] so will i start with you what you do
[0:09] sure well yeah first of all my name is
[0:11] zach hackett i
[0:12] am
[0:13] a devops engineer by trade i have a
[0:15] degree in computer science and i
[0:17] graduated university in 2019 so kind of
[0:20] a fresh graduate i suppose it's only
[0:22] been a couple of years here but
[0:24] i grew up in northeast us and i'm still
[0:26] living here just across the river from
[0:28] new york city so kind of been in this
[0:30] area for most of my life
[0:32] and yeah now nowadays i'm just working
[0:34] on building um ci cd kind of pipeline
[0:37] infrastructure for software companies
[0:39] are you trying a side hustle as well or
[0:43] you're focusing just on your full-time
[0:45] work yeah so most of my journey i've
[0:48] focused on scaling my income so far
[0:50] because that for me is a great place to
[0:52] to have a base right it's a great
[0:54] baseline to just have um a nice nice
[0:57] income that you can rely on from from a
[0:58] company but obviously i don't want to
[1:00] spend my entire life working for
[1:02] somebody else i'd like to have uh
[1:04] something something that i build myself
[1:06] something that i can kind of support
[1:08] myself and uh build a team on top of
[1:10] not so sure what that'll look like yet
[1:12] but with twitter specifically um growing
[1:14] up i i was
[1:16] raised in sort of a lower middle class
[1:17] family and i saw a lot of problems that
[1:20] my parents had not having any real
[1:23] financial literacy and and that kind of
[1:24] sparked an interest in me
[1:26] really early on to
[1:29] pay attention to my finances and
[1:30] understand
[1:31] how to leverage my finances to get ahead
[1:33] and to set myself up such that maybe my
[1:36] future family won't have to worry about
[1:38] some of the things that i did as a kid
[1:40] and so
[1:41] that's kind of what my twitter is sort
[1:42] of being branded around and my personal
[1:45] brand online is kind of focused on just
[1:47] bringing
[1:49] kind of personal uh finance literacy to
[1:52] early college graduates folks who just
[1:54] got out of school and kind of kicking
[1:55] off your
[1:56] you know uh living on your own kind of
[1:58] journey uh in in that way so
[2:01] so yeah if you want to um hear more
[2:04] about what i write about in terms of
[2:05] finance and and building mental models
[2:07] to approach finances mindfully
[2:10] you can follow me on twitter at zac e
[2:12] hackett and i do
[2:14] a lot of the same material on youtube
[2:16] but in a bit more detail because
[2:18] twitter's not great for tons of detail
[2:19] so you can follow me or subscribe to my
[2:22] youtube channel as well to get to get
[2:23] videos on sort of my personal finance
[2:25] journey as well as
[2:26] career path tips and tricks
[2:30] and one of your tagline twitter tagline
[2:33] is you paid off your student loan
[2:37] yeah yeah i actually haven't paid off
[2:39] all of it i i graduated with uh
[2:41] about 125 000 of debt
[2:44] and i've paid about half of it down in
[2:47] around two and a half years at this
[2:49] point so
[2:50] um pretty aggressive i like to
[2:53] target target those loans pretty
[2:55] aggressively so i'm putting as much as i
[2:57] can to them get them out of the way as
[2:58] soon as possible um and then you know
[3:00] we'll see what comes after that when i
[3:02] free up some of that income but that's
[3:04] so far it's been it's been a nice
[3:06] journey i've been able to do it pretty
[3:07] quickly
[3:08] awesome awesome that's that's amazing to
[3:11] to first know that you have already uh
[3:15] halfway there
[3:16] and then second
[3:18] knowing that you have that awareness
[3:21] many people doesn't even realize that
[3:23] this is something that they can do like
[3:25] pay off early and and once you pay off
[3:28] you have uh uh
[3:30] everything that you're earning is for
[3:32] yourself then
[3:34] exactly yeah i like to think of it as
[3:35] you're you're almost investing in a
[3:37] raise right you're putting in a little
[3:38] extra money up front to tackle those
[3:41] loans early but as soon as you get rid
[3:42] of that monthly payment you have all
[3:44] that extra income to now spend on maybe
[3:46] other things or invest or whatever it
[3:48] may be
[3:49] so i kind of think about it as i'm
[3:50] investing in a raise in the future
[3:53] cool we're going to come back to this
[3:55] topic but let's start with
[3:58] what you wanted to become when you was
[4:00] in high school
[4:02] yeah so growing up um prior to high
[4:04] school even i wanted to be an
[4:05] archaeologist i really liked kind of the
[4:07] the idea of like digging up things and
[4:09] discovering old like hidden artifacts
[4:11] and all that kind of stuff
[4:13] but once i got to school in in high
[4:14] school that is i took a programming
[4:16] class and it was in java
[4:18] which was the first language that i
[4:20] really started playing around with and i
[4:21] fell in love with programming um so i
[4:23] knew
[4:24] pretty much
[4:25] sophomore year of high school around age
[4:28] maybe 15 or 16 i knew i wanted to do
[4:31] something programming related
[4:32] because i really enjoyed it and i just
[4:34] got kind of lucky that the thing i
[4:35] really enjoyed also is a lucrative field
[4:38] it just kind of lined up well for me but
[4:40] i firmly believe that you should do what
[4:42] you enjoy over
[4:44] something that pays well because if you
[4:46] are enjoying what you do then
[4:48] the money will eventually kind of follow
[4:51] um
[4:52] and so i just kept programming i started
[4:55] learning java moved on to web
[4:56] development technologies like html css
[4:58] things like that and just kind of built
[5:00] side projects
[5:01] and then went into
[5:03] college looking for a degree in computer
[5:05] science
[5:07] will you have any kind of fascination
[5:09] when you was thinking about
[5:11] archaeologists that what you're gonna
[5:12] find when you dig something
[5:15] i was always really into dinosaurs i
[5:17] know it's more like paleontology but
[5:19] obviously you know dinosaurs are super
[5:20] cool so i always like that kind of thing
[5:22] but i always i also had like
[5:25] some sort of fantasies of going into
[5:27] ancient tombs and discovering random uh
[5:30] you know treasure troves that somebody
[5:32] forgot is like long lost like treasure
[5:34] troves from you know maybe ancient
[5:36] egyptian kings or something like that i
[5:37] always thought that would be really
[5:38] really interesting to be a part of the
[5:39] excavation process there
[5:42] so once you finish your college um is
[5:45] this the first job that you got
[5:48] it's not actually um
[5:50] i
[5:52] so i i applied for a few jobs in my
[5:54] senior year of of college uh fall
[5:56] semester i did a lot of my
[5:58] sort of application and interviewing
[6:00] processes for
[6:01] uh for jobs um i ended up getting a job
[6:04] with a company called nielsen which does
[6:06] sort of data analytics on a global scale
[6:09] and i
[6:10] i started there and it was sort of a
[6:12] rotational program i was supposed to be
[6:14] on one team for a year and then they
[6:15] would move me to another team and kind
[6:16] of give you
[6:17] um a view of different areas of the
[6:19] company before you settle down in a
[6:21] specific spot for your more full-time
[6:23] position
[6:24] and
[6:25] the position they put me into
[6:27] was a bit weird it was a little bit um
[6:29] amorphous nobody really knew
[6:31] what they wanted me to do it was a team
[6:33] of myself and my boss
[6:36] and i didn't really have any day-to-day
[6:37] directions so i picked up some side
[6:39] projects with a different team and just
[6:41] kind of like scouted around asking for
[6:42] other teams that needed help
[6:44] and
[6:45] i started working on some automation
[6:46] tools just doing some programming
[6:49] and
[6:50] i built up a rapport with this other
[6:51] team
[6:52] and it ended up they ended up basically
[6:54] hiring me
[6:56] to work for them full time and that's
[6:57] what got me into the devops field um so
[7:00] i moved from nielsen to the company i'm
[7:02] at now which is actually under um it's a
[7:05] an acquisition by ibm so technically i'm
[7:07] at ibm right now but
[7:09] um
[7:10] that's kind of and i i interned at ibm
[7:12] too in college so it's a weird way to
[7:14] get get back to them um
[7:17] yeah
[7:18] so when you was in college
[7:20] and uh managing your finance um
[7:24] how did you do that
[7:26] yeah so back in college i
[7:28] actually did everything via spreadsheets
[7:31] i would keep the biggest piece of
[7:33] personal finance in my opinion is a
[7:35] budget if you don't have a budget it's
[7:36] really really difficult to
[7:39] get anywhere with your finances i like
[7:40] to think of it as
[7:42] you know when was the last time you took
[7:43] a drive without a gps or you took a road
[7:45] trip and you didn't use your gps right
[7:47] the destination is great but if you
[7:48] don't know how to get there doesn't
[7:49] matter and the budget is your roadmap to
[7:52] financial freedom
[7:54] so
[7:55] i really tried to build a budget as soon
[7:57] as i was off on my own
[7:59] so to speak and so i did everything via
[8:02] spreadsheets i would keep all of my
[8:03] receipts and every day or every few days
[8:06] depending on whether i remembered to do
[8:07] it or not i would go in my spreadsheet
[8:09] and just update all the amounts with
[8:11] with receipts
[8:13] i quickly learned that that is a really
[8:15] really tedious thing to do
[8:16] um so i've since moved away from the
[8:18] spreadsheet and i'm using an app called
[8:20] every dollar to do that now but there
[8:21] are plenty of apps
[8:23] out there yeah i think it's phenomenal
[8:24] um
[8:25] and it works because it
[8:27] it lets me
[8:29] handle finances in the way that i think
[8:31] about them i've tried other apps and i
[8:32] wrote a thread on uh on twitter about
[8:35] all the different kind of most popular
[8:36] apps that are out there for budgeting
[8:39] so if every dollar is not your thing
[8:40] that's that's great there are plenty of
[8:41] other options but that's just the one
[8:43] that fits the way that i think about my
[8:44] finances the most um so that's what i
[8:46] use um and that's kind of where it
[8:48] started like i said with spreadsheets
[8:50] and just trying to keep track of all my
[8:51] receipts
[8:52] [Music]
[8:53] where did you get this inspiration
[8:56] that you need to manage your budget you
[8:58] need to
[9:00] kind of understand your finance and
[9:02] track it so
[9:04] is that a family thing or you heard from
[9:06] someone or what
[9:08] yeah it stems back to my family when i
[9:10] was about nine years old or ten years
[9:13] old
[9:14] i heard a lot that like my parents
[9:17] couldn't afford something that i had
[9:18] asked for or
[9:19] um i had heard them sort of discuss how
[9:23] they couldn't afford certain things
[9:25] and uh it didn't really settle well with
[9:27] me even at that age i just didn't didn't
[9:29] like the idea that there would come a
[9:31] time where it's like i'm not sure that i
[9:32] can afford this thing
[9:34] and so at that time i didn't quite
[9:36] understand the personal finance side of
[9:38] it or like how you get to a point where
[9:40] that's not a problem
[9:42] but i understood my parents can't afford
[9:43] something i want that thing
[9:46] i need to go work to be able to afford
[9:48] it myself and so i started working when
[9:50] i was 10
[9:51] babysitting and like mowing lawns in my
[9:53] neighborhood and things like that
[9:55] and
[9:56] picking up whatever whatever odd jobs i
[9:58] could just try to make some extra cash
[9:59] to buy whatever random toys or whatever
[10:01] i wanted um and it took a few years
[10:04] until i got like a a more regular
[10:07] sort of job
[10:08] before i realized that
[10:11] in order for
[10:13] finances or wealth to be built
[10:16] you really need to have a plan about how
[10:17] you're handling the money that you're
[10:19] earning
[10:20] what i noticed was
[10:21] throughout those you know maybe five
[10:23] years or so
[10:24] from when i started working until i got
[10:26] like a more real job i guess
[10:28] um what i noticed was i didn't have any
[10:30] money left right i was spending
[10:33] everything and
[10:35] my thought there was well if i'm
[10:36] spending everything and something
[10:38] happened like
[10:39] you know now i'm starting to work at a
[10:40] more more real job and i'm close to
[10:43] getting a license i don't have any money
[10:44] to buy a car things like that i realized
[10:47] that saving was super important
[10:49] and i noticed again that my parents
[10:50] weren't really able to do that prior to
[10:52] having kids
[10:54] and so that was something i started to
[10:55] think about
[10:56] well i want to be able to save so that
[10:58] when something comes up i can
[11:00] deal with it and not be stressed out
[11:01] about whether i can afford it or not i
[11:03] also saw the way that it affected my
[11:04] parents in terms of their relationship
[11:06] and so i also wanted to
[11:08] be able to give my
[11:11] future spouse the ability to stay at
[11:14] home if if she wanted to
[11:16] not have to work if she didn't want to
[11:17] and kind of give us both the freedom of
[11:20] well we don't feel like working right
[11:21] now we don't have to
[11:26] awesome and last question on this uh are
[11:29] you following someone like dave ramsey
[11:31] if you're following every dollar um i am
[11:35] a firm believer that you can never stop
[11:37] learning there's never enough
[11:39] uh time really to learn everything that
[11:40] you could learn so i follow a whole lot
[11:43] of people in terms of of
[11:45] keeping myself up to date on personal
[11:46] finance stuff i don't agree with dave
[11:47] ramsey on a lot of things
[11:49] mostly his
[11:51] his views on debt i think are
[11:53] maybe a little too strict
[11:55] but
[11:56] i like to take in everything i can if i
[11:58] don't agree with it i don't agree with
[11:59] it and that's fine
[12:00] but it helps me understand people's
[12:02] perspectives and that helps me talk to
[12:04] people about finances better because i
[12:06] can more holistically understand how a
[12:08] lot of people think about finances so
[12:10] yeah i'll basically listen to anybody
[12:12] who wants to talk about them
[12:13] nice i want to ask you about your
[12:17] investment are you have you started your
[12:21] roth ira or any type of stock type
[12:25] investments
[12:27] yeah i'm invested in a handful different
[12:28] things i do have a roth ira i have a
[12:30] 401k
[12:31] and then i have a just a generic
[12:33] brokerage account that i also put funds
[12:35] into
[12:36] and i just recently started investing in
[12:38] art as well
[12:39] um as sort of just a way to diversify
[12:41] asset classes and i'd love to get into
[12:43] real estate that's kind of my big goal
[12:45] for 2022 is to get my first rental
[12:47] property
[12:48] we'll see if that happens but i'm
[12:50] working towards it
[12:52] rental properties are amazing uh it does
[12:56] require
[12:57] work time to time so i do have some and
[13:00] i manage my sometime it's just
[13:02] things come up and you get a scale but
[13:05] at the same time
[13:07] if you can handle few things
[13:09] with your hand things are fine
[13:14] yeah i'm really excited to get into it
[13:16] and
[13:17] i think probably the first property i
[13:18] would try to manage myself i'm not super
[13:20] interested in managing properties so
[13:22] eventually i would definitely hire a pm
[13:24] but
[13:25] for now uh i just want to get i just
[13:27] want to get into the game so we'll see
[13:28] what happens and how the market looks
[13:31] and everything and i know i can get
[13:32] started
[13:37] you're doing great with your finance
[13:40] you have awareness and you you have
[13:42] actions you you have
[13:44] paid off half your
[13:47] student loan
[13:48] so amazing
[13:50] when
[13:51] you get into the relationship especially
[13:53] when you get married
[13:55] uh this other person whoever that person
[13:57] will be
[13:58] will have their own belief system their
[14:01] own
[14:02] spending habits
[14:04] so how are you planning to handle that
[14:06] because without you too in sync
[14:10] it's not gonna be
[14:12] that great
[14:14] absolutely i actually i am already
[14:16] married so oh you are i should have i am
[14:20] i am yeah so
[14:21] in uh
[14:22] in i've i have had to go through that um
[14:26] one thing that i
[14:27] try to do a lot and my my wife is not
[14:29] very
[14:30] interested in finances so it's something
[14:33] that i've definitely taken by the reins
[14:35] in terms of
[14:36] which of the two of us are are doing it
[14:38] but i think it's extremely important for
[14:39] both members of a relationship to be
[14:41] equally involved in the finances you
[14:43] both need to be aware of what's going on
[14:45] because
[14:46] finance is a huge huge way that people
[14:49] kind of yeah for lack of a better term
[14:51] ruin their relationships if you're not
[14:53] communicating well about finances so we
[14:56] actually do what we call a board meeting
[14:57] every single month
[14:59] where
[14:59] we talk we talk about our like upcoming
[15:02] calendar for the next month we talk
[15:03] about our finances for the next month we
[15:04] talk about chores for the next month and
[15:06] it's just a way to sort of sit down and
[15:08] pause
[15:09] month to month and make sure that we're
[15:11] nothing's getting away from us we'll
[15:13] talk about you know things relationally
[15:15] that went well or didn't go well that
[15:17] might maybe we need to talk about and
[15:19] that kind of just lets us reset for the
[15:21] month coming up and make sure that we're
[15:23] on the same page
[15:24] in terms of
[15:27] conversations around the actual like
[15:28] financials of of our lives um
[15:32] it really depends on the month sometimes
[15:33] it's easier to have a conversation than
[15:35] others
[15:36] and
[15:37] um
[15:38] it was difficult to get my wife on track
[15:41] or on the same page about how
[15:43] aggressively i want to invest and how
[15:45] aggressively i want to pay down loans
[15:47] um i think
[15:49] it's not necessarily something that you
[15:50] can
[15:51] teach people
[15:52] but it is really important
[15:55] to try to stress the the importance of
[15:58] investing early and obviously with
[16:00] compound growth just the way that that
[16:01] works um from a mathematical perspective
[16:04] the earlier you start investing the less
[16:06] you actually have to invest long term in
[16:08] order to find financial freedom
[16:10] and
[16:11] um it's sort of that delayed
[16:12] gratification piece right where
[16:14] you may have to go with a little bit
[16:16] less right now but you're going to end
[16:17] up with so much more later if you do
[16:19] that and
[16:20] there's just you know there's an amount
[16:22] of communication you have to have
[16:23] between the two of you to get on the
[16:25] same page about that and
[16:27] we had some balance right where okay i
[16:29] wanted to invest
[16:31] whatever the amount was like a really
[16:33] high number
[16:35] she thought maybe it was too much so we
[16:36] kind of balance out a little bit and
[16:38] and uh
[16:39] adjust as needed to to make both of us
[16:42] happy that way
[16:44] are you sure you're 25 you sound like
[16:48] i
[16:50] uh this is um
[16:52] this is so pleasant to see someone with
[16:56] this um
[16:58] this
[16:59] thought and also uh you're you're
[17:01] implementing that in your practice and
[17:03] not only
[17:04] your own practice but you're also
[17:08] guiding mentoring coaching your wife
[17:10] it's amazing i don't know how you thank
[17:12] you i really appreciate that
[17:15] but uh
[17:16] all this uh this heart of uh hard work
[17:19] all this hard work will pay off um just
[17:22] 10 years from now
[17:24] i'm not even saying that
[17:26] 50 years from now
[17:28] yeah and that's you know i'm glad you
[17:30] said that number because that is my goal
[17:31] right now my my retirement number is 35.
[17:35] um not to say that i'll stop working i
[17:37] think that's actually i think that's a
[17:38] pretty antiquated view of retirement um
[17:42] i just want to be able to do what i want
[17:43] with my time and and for me the most
[17:45] important investment is relationships
[17:46] and i think if i can
[17:48] step away from my nine to five
[17:50] at an early age i can build into
[17:52] relationships in my life a lot more
[17:54] aggressively right i can invest in those
[17:55] more aggressively and so that's kind of
[17:57] my goal with with uh why i'm even doing
[18:00] the finance thing in the first place
[18:02] that's amazing what you want to become
[18:05] in next five years 10 years
[18:08] that's a great question uh i i'm the
[18:10] type of person who will have like a
[18:12] five-year plan a 10-year plan a 15-year
[18:14] plan
[18:14] but then i'm very aware that like none
[18:17] of those plans could come true you know
[18:19] i'm ready to throw the plan out i guess
[18:21] if something comes up and coming into
[18:23] this this job last year i didn't really
[18:27] know exactly what i wanted to do i've
[18:28] never
[18:29] i i've never consulted before so that
[18:31] was kind of the new piece to me was like
[18:33] will i enjoy
[18:34] working with clients on a regular basis
[18:35] will i enjoy the consulting side of
[18:37] things
[18:38] um
[18:39] and what i've learned this past year is
[18:41] that i like to solve the problem i like
[18:44] to hear what the client is having
[18:45] problems with come up with a solution
[18:48] but then i don't always particularly
[18:49] care to implement the solution
[18:51] so i'm moving towards a solutions
[18:53] architect kind of role where i can i can
[18:55] do that i can be the problem solver but
[18:56] then i can pass off
[18:58] uh to a devops engineer to actually
[19:00] build the the solution now um and
[19:02] that'll be a little more client-facing
[19:04] it'll be a little more on the pre-sale
[19:05] side which i'm interested to see i'm
[19:07] starting to get more interested in how
[19:09] the business operates and learning kind
[19:11] of business
[19:12] attributes and things like that
[19:13] which hopefully will help me down the
[19:15] line in terms of whatever personal
[19:17] endeavors i decide to do
[19:20] and with twitter i'm learning really
[19:22] trying to focus on the writing and build
[19:24] out my ability to to write technically
[19:26] and write well in a way that people
[19:28] gravitate towards and can understand
[19:30] without
[19:31] you know feeling confused or any of
[19:33] those sorts of feelings so
[19:35] that's kind of where i'm looking
[19:36] hopefully moving into that solutions
[19:38] architecture like i mentioned and then
[19:40] and then we'll see i want to do
[19:42] something with finance overall i'd love
[19:44] to be like writing ebooks on on the
[19:46] topics
[19:47] maybe build a sas that might help
[19:49] certain people with with a particular
[19:51] area of personal finance not so sure
[19:53] that about that yet i haven't really
[19:55] flushed any of those ideas out
[19:57] um for now i'm just trying to build the
[19:58] audience in the community and get myself
[20:00] out there
[20:01] with conversations like this one where
[20:03] folks can kind of
[20:05] get to know me a little bit i can get to
[20:07] know them and we can just build this
[20:08] community on twitter and and from there
[20:10] once i have the community in place kind
[20:12] of see where it goes and what people
[20:13] need
[20:14] i took a couple of years just to decide
[20:17] do i want to go in the management field
[20:20] or architectural field because i love it
[20:23] so much
[20:25] but then
[20:26] i decided to go into management field
[20:28] and then
[20:29] things started changing my perspective
[20:32] started changing after being a manager
[20:35] for couple of years
[20:36] when i started seeing that i am able to
[20:39] affect people
[20:41] life
[20:43] as a manager
[20:45] you get so many opportunities where
[20:48] you um what you're talking to your
[20:52] team member
[20:53] or um maybe it's inspiration maybe some
[20:57] maybe
[20:58] a challenge that you're offering to
[21:01] somebody each of the step that you take
[21:04] can affect the other person
[21:06] uh to be some
[21:08] something someone um in in their life so
[21:12] that was a remarkable journey and then
[21:14] um
[21:17] taking something to finish line was
[21:20] another
[21:21] exciting thing that i realized that i
[21:23] like to do is to whether it is project
[21:26] management or whether it is uh the
[21:28] delivery management you name it or
[21:31] bringing people together
[21:33] and have them work and if they are
[21:35] missing something if they need
[21:37] either a resource or a person or
[21:40] technology then
[21:42] bringing that and giving it to them so
[21:44] that they can continue uh to
[21:47] to
[21:48] operate
[21:49] those type of things is
[21:51] so much exciting later on um and and
[21:55] um again
[21:56] you probably going to encounter same
[21:58] type of experience and those experience
[22:01] will start guiding you
[22:03] um
[22:04] what you will be in
[22:05] 10 years or 20 years from now
[22:09] and you're already thinking about
[22:12] next 10 years
[22:13] and
[22:15] i think by that age
[22:19] and obviously if you have the financial
[22:21] freedom you can focus more on the item
[22:24] that um
[22:26] will be more fulfilling
[22:29] um
[22:30] but yeah well
[22:33] i i was just curious if you could give
[22:35] me a little more um insight i guess on
[22:38] that aspect because that was something
[22:39] when i when i started my career i
[22:42] i started in software development and
[22:45] i
[22:46] didn't really like the idea of having to
[22:49] interact with too many people so i
[22:50] thought software was great right i can
[22:52] just sit on my computer i can hack out
[22:54] some code and and it'll be great and
[22:56] then when i moved into the consulting
[22:58] business i
[22:59] am interacting with clients i'm
[23:01] interacting with co-workers on a more
[23:02] regular basis and i realize like i do
[23:05] like impacting people's lives and i
[23:07] think
[23:08] i've had a couple of managers myself
[23:10] that have really impacted me and i'd
[23:12] love to be able to do that for people in
[23:13] the future
[23:14] so i guess my question to you is is when
[23:17] did you make in terms of your career
[23:19] when did you make the switch from
[23:22] uh
[23:23] i guess the tech side into management
[23:25] like how many years into your career
[23:27] were you comfortable with making that
[23:28] move or when was it the opportunity came
[23:30] up
[23:33] that's a great question
[23:34] in my case it happens around
[23:38] about seven years of experience
[23:43] when i became a team leader and right
[23:45] after i became a manager
[23:48] but i i believe
[23:50] that i waited too long
[23:52] i would encourage other people
[23:55] to
[23:56] do it sooner
[23:57] um
[23:58] what happened at least in my case
[24:01] that
[24:03] i was very driven by what people are
[24:06] saying what people
[24:08] uh opinion about my work and
[24:12] about me
[24:14] so i would
[24:16] share my aspiration with someone and
[24:18] depending upon how that person is
[24:20] responding
[24:22] my confidence level would go up and down
[24:25] and i think it was because i was looking
[24:28] because i guess i was not
[24:31] confident or i did not know that
[24:34] only i can decide whether i'm ready or
[24:36] not
[24:38] so in from inside i was not feeling
[24:40] ready so i was looking for aspiration
[24:42] outside that somebody else will have
[24:45] such confidence and everybody
[24:47] um
[24:48] the the challenge is
[24:50] if you are not ready if you don't
[24:53] believe yourself
[24:56] most of the other people will not
[24:57] believe you
[25:00] so
[25:00] alternate method is you have to believe
[25:03] in yourself you have to feel ready and
[25:06] then you go after other people and then
[25:08] they just
[25:10] listen to
[25:11] your
[25:12] your confidence so to answer your
[25:14] question
[25:15] i think um
[25:17] any time between three to five years is
[25:19] enough experience for somebody to start
[25:22] um
[25:23] acting as a team leader or as a manager
[25:27] great okay that's that's comforting to
[25:29] hear because
[25:30] that's i think everybody deals with this
[25:32] right but that's something that i have
[25:34] noticed especially with this new company
[25:35] that i'm at
[25:36] and i i call it new but i you know i've
[25:38] been here a year but um
[25:41] i work with some really intelligent
[25:42] people and imposter syndrome is a real
[25:45] issue
[25:45] everybody deals with it and so there can
[25:48] be a lot of times where i'm like
[25:49] do i actually belong here is this is
[25:51] this what i should be doing because
[25:53] these people can run circles around me
[25:54] in terms of technical talk or whatever
[25:56] it may be
[25:57] but then i go into like uh reviews with
[26:00] folks and you know i get a lot of praise
[26:02] and it feels really good but at the same
[26:04] time like are you sure you're talking
[26:05] about me
[26:07] so it's nice to hear you say that
[26:08] because i'm coming up on that that sort
[26:09] of
[26:10] timeline i'm about into my three three
[26:12] and a half years into my career and um
[26:15] starting to pick up some amounts of
[26:17] leadership
[26:18] roles here so
[26:19] um
[26:20] we'll see how that evolves and i'm
[26:22] excited to see what i can do there but
[26:24] that's that's great advice to take the
[26:25] confidence and just kind of run with it
[26:27] because um that's that's what people
[26:29] respond to i really appreciate that
[26:31] um
[26:32] so two two follow-up advice on that one
[26:35] is
[26:36] if you do your own review monthly
[26:39] quarterly
[26:42] and you start evaluating yourself you
[26:44] will actually stop looking for praise
[26:46] outside
[26:49] and
[26:50] looking for praise outside
[26:52] this is the whole system that we have
[26:54] gone through when we were child we was
[26:56] looking for praise from our parents
[26:59] to see if
[27:01] we did right or wrong
[27:03] same thing with the college system same
[27:05] thing with the schooling system teacher
[27:07] response and other people respond so
[27:10] somehow you have to break that cycle
[27:14] of looking for praise and appreciation
[27:17] from other people
[27:20] and one way to do that is to do your own
[27:23] review
[27:24] what you have accomplished in the last
[27:26] one month for example
[27:28] and
[27:29] what
[27:30] is you could have done best moment all
[27:33] that right there are a couple of
[27:34] questions and then there are guided uh
[27:36] checklist as well that you can use
[27:39] prompt
[27:40] guided prompt that you can use to answer
[27:43] those questions so first
[27:45] at some point you have to get over
[27:48] that
[27:50] confirmation from other people on your
[27:53] work
[27:54] and then the second thing is
[28:00] work
[28:01] level up
[28:03] without a title
[28:06] so
[28:07] in most big companies
[28:09] you can start working at the next level
[28:13] even though they have not promoted you
[28:17] so for example a team of four people
[28:20] if you have an opportunity to be
[28:23] acting as a team leader
[28:25] for a project for a task it doesn't have
[28:28] to be
[28:30] for everything right but if there is a
[28:32] project and you you can take lead and
[28:36] act as a team leader on that
[28:38] um
[28:39] then those are the opportunities that
[28:41] you can take early on you don't have to
[28:43] wait for
[28:45] um somebody to confirm your title change
[28:47] those are the moment where you can show
[28:50] to yourself how well you're liking it
[28:52] how well you're doing this and you gain
[28:54] the
[28:55] experience and confidence
[28:58] yeah that's a great point i'm gonna have
[28:59] to keep an eye out for this
[29:01] yeah those are the two advice that i
[29:03] would say um one is to start looking to
[29:06] stop looking for praise outside and
[29:08] second is any opportunity do you you see
[29:11] you start acting a step up
[29:14] on those
[29:16] um
[29:18] and again you're showing it to yourself
[29:20] so um other people are not well
[29:23] threatened or challenged
[29:25] right yeah that's a good point too yeah
[29:27] you know it's still
[29:29] still teamwork and you still have to
[29:30] work as a team it's not like you're
[29:32] trying to uh belittle anybody you work
[29:34] with but yeah just trying to prove to
[29:36] yourself that you can handle a certain
[29:38] task and
[29:39] take the step up yeah i think that's a
[29:41] great motivation and a great way to
[29:42] approach that
[29:45] awesome
[29:46] all right so we're gonna move to the
[29:47] next section
[29:49] um what's your goal setting methods
[29:53] that's a great question it tends to
[29:55] change for me i'm still sort of
[29:56] exploring what uh what works for me and
[29:59] i think
[30:00] obviously with a lot of the things we've
[30:02] talked about it's it's a personal thing
[30:04] you know something different works for
[30:05] everybody everybody sort of differently
[30:08] right now i try to do
[30:11] i do an annual review for myself at the
[30:13] end of each year and that kind of sets
[30:15] up what my annual goals for the
[30:17] following year might look like
[30:19] um and then i i will try to do a
[30:20] quarterly review just to make sure that
[30:22] some of those goals i set up are are
[30:24] being tackled correctly
[30:26] um
[30:27] in in sort of uh day-to-day sort of goal
[30:30] setting i use what i call a critical
[30:32] tasks list
[30:34] which is essentially a to-do list but
[30:37] a really specific to-do list
[30:38] um i think generally speaking to-do
[30:40] lists are
[30:42] kind of overused and not used properly
[30:45] so for me a critical tasks list is a
[30:47] list of no more than five items it's
[30:48] usually three to five items
[30:50] that i
[30:52] feel i have to get done that day or i'll
[30:54] feel like i didn't
[30:55] i didn't have a successful day
[30:57] um and those can be anything from
[30:59] something work related to a personal
[31:01] thing it doesn't really matter it might
[31:02] be meet with a friend
[31:04] but those are things that i feel i need
[31:06] to do or i won't feel accomplished today
[31:09] usually my critical tasks are feeding
[31:12] into some sort of bigger goal that i
[31:13] have it might be a weekly goal it might
[31:15] be a monthly goal
[31:16] and i've been doing a lot lately on
[31:18] trying to build habits so i'm using this
[31:20] app called streaks on i on ios and
[31:24] just keeps track of
[31:25] yeah streaks
[31:27] and it just keeps track of
[31:29] of habits um
[31:31] and it's a really cool app really robust
[31:33] and it it lets you um
[31:36] sort of track things on a daily
[31:37] perspective a weekly perspective you can
[31:39] play around with with all sorts of
[31:40] different stuff there um but i'm trying
[31:42] to build good habits and then also pay
[31:44] attention to my bad habits and break
[31:45] those down and try to get rid of them
[31:47] um
[31:49] mostly eating healthy is a big one i'm
[31:51] trying to to fix my eating habits at
[31:53] this point but
[31:55] um in terms of goal setting more
[31:56] specifically yeah i tend to just try to
[31:58] rely on that critical task list and then
[32:00] check up on it every
[32:02] every so often usually monthly or
[32:03] quarterly to to make sure that i'm
[32:05] tackling big goals like i said i have
[32:07] those like sort of five-year 10-year
[32:08] 15-year plans
[32:10] and those all have like some really big
[32:13] goals and then one thing i've been
[32:14] reading about a lot lately is is trying
[32:16] to
[32:18] monitor your process more than
[32:20] the actual goal itself and make sure
[32:22] that you set a process rather than focus
[32:24] on the goal so i'm really process
[32:26] oriented right now trying to just put
[32:28] things in place like i said build those
[32:29] habits and and make sure that
[32:31] once a goal is achieved i'm not just
[32:33] going to stop because that that could be
[32:34] a big problem and it's at that point why
[32:36] even bother hitting the goal
[32:39] yeah
[32:40] it definitely looks at 24 35 45.
[32:44] you're doing amazing i i'm
[32:47] i'm really happy that
[32:49] i met you um
[32:51] and if i was like you and my 24 year old
[32:55] i don't know what i would have been
[32:57] right now
[32:59] well thank you i really do appreciate
[33:01] that and it's great to talk to you too
[33:02] this has been this has been awesome
[33:05] um thank you and then a couple of
[33:07] follow-up questions on that number one
[33:09] for your to-do list the critical list
[33:11] are you using a pen paper or a app or
[33:14] what
[33:15] yeah so for the critical task list i
[33:16] actually use i've got it right here i
[33:18] use a little
[33:20] sort of notebook just like a little
[33:21] kind of index card size notebook
[33:24] that i use pen and paper and i just keep
[33:26] it in a little stand on my desk so i can
[33:28] see it
[33:29] all the time
[33:30] like i said those are tasks i feel i
[33:32] need to get done to feel accomplished
[33:33] for the day so if they're not in front
[33:34] of me there's a good chance i'm going to
[33:35] forget to do them
[33:37] and so i do that in pen and paper i do
[33:39] that every morning i set those those
[33:40] tasks um i'd actually like to do them at
[33:42] night for the for the next day but still
[33:44] working to adjust my
[33:46] uh my sort of routine to get that to
[33:49] work that way but for now i'm doing them
[33:50] in the morning my bigger goal tracking i
[33:52] do on notion um which is an online tool
[33:56] and um my habit tracking like i said
[34:00] yeah i love notion i love it i don't i'm
[34:01] not a power user i don't i use it for a
[34:03] lot of things but i haven't really
[34:05] gotten into
[34:06] um
[34:07] ironically i haven't really gotten into
[34:09] like the programming side of notion
[34:10] where you can like use functions and
[34:12] stuff
[34:12] um i i
[34:14] still just scratching the surface on it
[34:16] but i do i do love using it for pretty
[34:18] much everything yeah how did you find
[34:21] that what's your big goals are what you
[34:23] want to do
[34:25] that's a good question i
[34:28] you know i'm fortunate in that sort of
[34:30] similar to my career path i
[34:33] find that a lot of my like big
[34:35] overarching goals kind of
[34:37] fall in my lap in a way
[34:38] in that um
[34:40] you know i want financial freedom and so
[34:42] that's kind of the big goal is like
[34:44] can i do whatever i want with my time
[34:47] right now i can't so how do i get to a
[34:49] point where i can do that
[34:51] and a lot of there are a lot of pieces
[34:53] that go into it so my biggest goal is
[34:54] just financial freedom being able to do
[34:56] what i want with my time with who i want
[34:58] when i want for as long as i want
[35:00] and that's the big driving goal for me
[35:03] that's like like i said the 10 or
[35:04] 15-year goal
[35:06] and then all the other ones kind of stem
[35:07] off of that so in order to hit financial
[35:09] freedom i need a good job that pays well
[35:11] i need to start side hustles i need to
[35:14] build relationships because without
[35:16] those the free time doesn't matter
[35:18] um
[35:20] so that's kind of yeah that's that's
[35:21] kind of the big one um and then i just
[35:24] do a lot of reading honestly i pay
[35:26] attention to people on twitter and see
[35:27] what journeys other folks are taking and
[35:29] that kind of helps
[35:31] shape mine so i can see well this works
[35:33] for them it didn't work for this person
[35:36] let me take pieces of all of these
[35:37] different journeys and apply them to my
[35:38] own life
[35:39] and see where it leads me
[35:42] then you should watch on my episode on
[35:44] career journey shameless plug
[35:47] sure
[35:49] and i love what you said that
[35:52] take a log of a day or a week
[35:54] and then look back and see
[35:57] what gave you more uh happiness and
[36:01] any book recommendation that you want to
[36:03] give or which are the book that you like
[36:06] sure yeah i love reading i have a very
[36:08] long reading list that i am never able
[36:10] to
[36:11] take books out of faster than i add them
[36:13] so i'm always reading something new
[36:16] i'm a big big advocate for reading
[36:18] nonfiction as well as fiction i think a
[36:21] lot of people especially in like the
[36:22] twitter spaces are um very uh adamant
[36:27] about reading non-fiction but a lot of
[36:28] people forget to read fiction too so i
[36:30] read non-fiction in the morning
[36:32] uh to kind of jumpstart my brain get me
[36:33] ready for the day and then i read
[36:35] fiction at night so i can kind of unwind
[36:37] lose myself in a story and and get ready
[36:39] for bed
[36:40] um in terms of non-fiction let's see my
[36:43] one of my favorite books lately has been
[36:44] the psychology of money by morgan
[36:46] hausell
[36:47] very very good approach to understanding
[36:50] finances in a more modern kind of
[36:51] setting the book was published in 2020
[36:53] so it has a lot of
[36:55] you know it even mentions the the
[36:56] coronavirus so it's very very
[36:58] contemporary um
[37:00] and it looks at money
[37:02] from uh uh from a psychological
[37:04] perspective um instead of
[37:08] sort of a mathematical one and i think
[37:09] it's a really strong approach to money
[37:12] so that's a great one i'm reading atomic
[37:13] habits by james clear right now which is
[37:15] a phenomenal book pretty much everybody
[37:17] has at least heard of it
[37:18] that's another amazing one and so those
[37:21] would be my two i think top um
[37:24] top non-fiction books i am a
[37:27] a big fantasy sci-fi fan in terms of
[37:29] fiction so i've been reading a lot of
[37:30] brandon sanderson the stormlight archive
[37:32] is my favorite uh
[37:34] favorite book series by far um i would
[37:37] argue that brandon sanderson's actually
[37:38] a better writer than than tolkien which
[37:40] might get a lot of people mad at me but
[37:42] um i love his works and i'm reading the
[37:45] mistborn series right now by him as well
[37:47] which is which is absolutely phenomenal
[37:50] do you read physical book ebook or
[37:52] audiobook
[37:54] um i don't really do audiobooks but i do
[37:56] both physical and
[37:58] um ebooks i have uh
[38:00] actually i have it here with me this
[38:02] very old kindle paperwhite that i use
[38:05] for just about everything i tell people
[38:07] it's the best investment i've ever made
[38:10] yep that's the one
[38:13] perfect yeah but then i also read read
[38:16] physical books i have a copy of
[38:17] indistractable by near ayal right next
[38:19] to me um
[38:21] over here as well which is the next book
[38:22] i'll start reading when i finish atomic
[38:23] habits and that one especially when
[38:25] books have um
[38:27] a
[38:29] sort of a workbook piece to them or some
[38:31] bit of
[38:32] work that they ask you to do i try to
[38:34] get those in physical copies and then a
[38:36] lot of times i will
[38:38] read them on on kindle because i do
[38:39] highlights and then i publish my
[38:41] highlights and notes to my website
[38:44] and it's a lot easier to port those over
[38:45] from kindle than it is from paper
[38:47] um but if i really like a book i'll buy
[38:50] it in paper just to have it from like a
[38:51] bookshelf or something um so it's around
[38:53] the house
[38:55] and
[38:56] we you're doing so many things that kind
[38:58] of like this this is a book um well
[39:02] it's it's called the three-minute rule
[39:04] it's a book on um how to prepare a
[39:08] message and presentation and and
[39:11] all that thing so i listen that book on
[39:14] audible and then i like it so much that
[39:16] i buy a physical copy of it
[39:19] yeah i think it's a great way to
[39:20] approach it the the digital versions of
[39:23] books are typically cheaper and
[39:24] sometimes you can get them for free if
[39:25] you have like a library card or
[39:26] something
[39:27] and
[39:28] um it's a great way to get introduced to
[39:29] the book and if you really like it then
[39:31] then why not support the author and and
[39:33] pick up a copy and then you can share it
[39:35] with folks um i've got a couple of books
[39:36] that i'm gonna send out to like my my
[39:38] parents in the near future so they can
[39:40] give some stuff a read and it's
[39:42] nice to be able to pass that kind of
[39:43] thing along so
[39:45] yeah i like i like both
[39:47] kindle and audible
[39:49] you can switch between the two
[39:51] and and it sync the location exactly
[39:53] where you finish uh in kindle
[39:56] so you're reading here and you you you
[39:59] start driving like you
[40:01] left the house and you start driving
[40:03] your audible can pick up the location
[40:05] where you left on this kindle book
[40:08] oh i had no idea that you could do that
[40:09] that's really cool i actually have to
[40:11] give audible a look then because i i
[40:13] haven't used audible but if you can do
[40:15] that that sounds really awesome you
[40:17] don't have to use a lot of brain or
[40:18] attention you can just have earplugs and
[40:22] you can listen a book
[40:23] so you're utilizing a type um that you
[40:26] could not
[40:27] utilize otherwise for reading books
[40:31] yeah i think that's a great a great way
[40:32] to do that and that's uh
[40:34] what productive downtime right is like
[40:36] is that that's the concept of productive
[40:37] downtime where you're like leveraging
[40:39] time you would otherwise be wasting to
[40:41] do something productive and uh i think
[40:43] that's that's great yeah i had no idea
[40:44] audible added that feature so i would i
[40:46] would love to
[40:47] you know explore that and check that out
[40:49] i asked so many questions is there a
[40:51] question that i did not ask but you
[40:53] would like to answer
[40:55] ooh that's an interesting question i
[40:57] wasn't prepared for that one um
[41:01] no i think i think that's uh you you
[41:03] asked a lot of really great great
[41:05] questions and i got to kind of feel
[41:06] about a bunch of stuff that i'm
[41:08] interested in so i really appreciate the
[41:09] opportunity do you have any question for
[41:11] me my big one was was the career
[41:13] question that you already answered um so
[41:15] thank you for that
[41:16] i think i'm good what are i'm curious
[41:18] what are you reading like what what do
[41:19] you like to to read
[41:22] um i'm a really big fan of mel robin um
[41:26] i spent last four or four years
[41:29] thinking about what makes for me
[41:31] so
[41:32] in my full-time job i was able to
[41:35] achieve what i wanted to achieve
[41:37] and then before i commit to the next
[41:39] segment of
[41:41] jobs such as director and about
[41:44] i had to decide
[41:46] do i really want that or do i want
[41:50] something else and
[41:52] that
[41:53] was it
[41:55] i think it took almost three four years
[41:57] for me to thinking uh continuously
[41:59] thinking about it i went to mentorship i
[42:03] went to coaching and then mel robbing
[42:06] two books kick ass
[42:07] and take control of your life those two
[42:10] help me understand or organize my
[42:13] thought name
[42:14] so i would highly recommend those books
[42:17] just like you i read uh
[42:19] fiction as well as a self-help book and
[42:22] when i switched to
[42:24] a combination of both i was able to
[42:26] finish 58 book two years ago wow that's
[42:29] awesome that's more than a book a week
[42:31] that's crazy
[42:33] there is somebody named benjamin hardy
[42:36] and he has a book on your personality
[42:39] can change
[42:42] um so i'm reading that and then there is
[42:45] a trial book from um
[42:47] i forgot the writer name but
[42:50] um
[42:50] steal like an artist
[42:52] and show you a word sure
[42:54] yeah i've read show your work i haven't
[42:56] read steel like an artist but i've read
[42:57] show your work yeah so i'm reading still
[42:59] like an art artisan i got an audio book
[43:02] audible
[43:03] a trio i mean all three books are
[43:05] combined and i think those are five hour
[43:08] books so that's i met
[43:09] the first one and i just finished
[43:12] um
[43:13] your personality can change
[43:17] okay is that your personality can change
[43:19] is the same author
[43:20] no it's benjamin hardy oh that's
[43:22] benjamin hardy okay gotcha i forgot name
[43:25] of uh this
[43:27] um
[43:27] i want to say it's austin klein yes
[43:30] austin yes yes yes
[43:32] um so that's another one i bought that
[43:35] was one i got in um in paper as well
[43:37] show your work
[43:38] because that one like the the format
[43:40] with the
[43:41] the way they do the the pages and stuff
[43:43] is just yeah nicer on paper after after
[43:45] after starting that book i had realized
[43:47] that
[43:48] they have a proper disclaimer that
[43:52] audible experience is different from
[43:54] physical experience so they have made
[43:56] some adjustments so that made me think
[43:57] that i should buy a physical or ebook as
[44:00] well
[44:01] all right so last question
[44:03] what is the message to my audience
[44:08] um my audience are people like you who
[44:10] are in their early career or mid career
[44:14] where they're trying to see
[44:16] what our next 10 years 20 years look
[44:19] like for them great well in that case um
[44:23] i would say my biggest piece of advice
[44:24] would be to
[44:26] plan but be ready to throw the plan away
[44:28] be flexible um allow yourself the
[44:31] opportunity to pivot from your plan
[44:33] and
[44:35] be true to yourself um really pay
[44:37] attention to what makes you happy what
[44:39] makes you
[44:40] um tick and what you enjoy and
[44:43] target things that get you there um
[44:46] above anything else
[44:47] you know if you want to see more of like
[44:49] the same stuff i was talking about from
[44:51] a finance perspective or any of those
[44:52] kinds of
[44:53] mental models or frameworks or anything
[44:55] that i use um i write about a lot of
[44:57] that stuff on twitter and my handle's at
[44:59] zac e hackett
[45:01] and um
[45:02] i also have a uh youtube channel thank
[45:04] you zach as well
[45:06] talking to you
[45:07] likewise yeah this is this was a blast
[45:09] this is the first um
[45:11] interview that i've done on like a
[45:12] personal brand perspective like i've had
[45:14] interviews for the show that i do but
[45:16] it's about a card game it's not about
[45:17] like life and stuff so this is the first
[45:19] of these i've done and this is awesome
[45:21] i'm really really happy to be here and
[45:22] you look so normal so natural in front
[45:25] of camera it's lit like you've been
[45:27] doing it for entire life
[45:30] thank you i appreciate that i do i think
[45:32] i i chalk that up to working from home
[45:35] i've had to get very used to working
[45:36] with clients over cameras so i'll i'll
[45:38] say that's why but i really appreciate
[45:40] it that means a lot to me
[45:43] all right sir thank you so much all
[45:45] right
[45:46] all right thanks a bunch i really
[45:48] appreciate it this is awesome
[46:00] you