Scott Russell's Career Journey and A Day in the Life (Ep 32)

[0:00] so first of all thank you so much for
[0:03] accepting my request for this
[0:05] interviewers card as I explained to you
[0:07] other day that what I'm trying to do is
[0:09] to collect the stories of different
[0:11] people and their Journey from what they
[0:15] wanted to become when they was in high
[0:17] school and from their first job to now
[0:21] there are mostly either different people
[0:24] mentors or situation that directed their
[0:28] path to this stage and then later talk
[0:30] about their goal setting and time
[0:32] management method and a message to
[0:34] audience right in this case I know you
[0:37] for a long time I've been working with
[0:40] you almost five years now and I believe
[0:42] you've been in Advent health for about
[0:45] 18 years or so yeah I've been actually
[0:47] 39 years this year 39 years okay
[0:51] I was completely off
[0:54] I want to start from what you wanted to
[0:56] become when you was in high school you
[0:59] know that's a great question in high
[1:00] school at least when I was growing up
[1:02] the social setting I was in was uh not
[1:05] as focused on goal planning at that age
[1:07] as they are now that was really more
[1:10] college level that's not to stay we
[1:12] weren't without some ideas I think some
[1:14] of the more immature ideas I I know I
[1:17] really love dirt bikes and I was
[1:18] thinking of having a opening a workshop
[1:20] and living above it and focus on dirt
[1:24] bikes and street bikes and work as a
[1:26] mechanic and also consider doing this
[1:28] being a scuba diver instructor and
[1:30] running tours later on in matured a bit
[1:32] I actually strongly consider being an
[1:34] emergency room physician
[1:36] but I set that aside for some very
[1:38] specific reasons chose not to go that
[1:40] route so those were that's some example
[1:42] of the types of things that I might have
[1:44] considered as I was in in high school of
[1:47] course it changed once I got to college
[1:48] and discard before you uh you started
[1:52] working as a programmer in Florida
[1:53] Hospital Mis what other thing that you
[1:56] have done well my first job was working
[1:59] for my father he was a country a
[2:01] concrete contractor and that first job
[2:04] interestingly it's worth mentioning it
[2:06] actually gave me the best training for
[2:09] the job I have now I would credit it as
[2:12] providing me better it made me better
[2:15] equipped for my job than any of the
[2:17] formal training I received now clearly
[2:19] the formal training gave me the skill
[2:20] sets necessary but there's really a set
[2:24] of things some core Lessons Learned
[2:27] there one was first of all that no job
[2:29] is too hard secondly that no job is
[2:32] beneath you any job that needing to be
[2:34] done is worth doing by by yourself or
[2:37] others also a real can-do attitude
[2:40] meaning find a way to get the job done I
[2:42] remember a lot of job sites we'd come on
[2:44] to where the task was difficult the
[2:47] conditions were terrible but I never
[2:49] once heard from that crew
[2:51] we can't do it or don't know how to do
[2:53] it well they might say they don't know
[2:54] how to do it but there was never any
[2:55] question about doing the job we always
[2:58] found a way to do it and found a way to
[3:00] do it safely so this determination to in
[3:04] this in those in the face of adversity
[3:06] to to find a way to get things done was
[3:08] learned there
[3:09] we also learned that many hands make
[3:11] light work it's construction right not
[3:14] working by yourself is a good thing but
[3:17] not just working as a team but working
[3:19] safely as a team was very important and
[3:21] that has translated
[3:24] um also into the work I'm doing now of
[3:26] course it's different it's not physical
[3:27] labor the same thing applies
[3:31] um
[3:32] and then lastly I think the most
[3:34] intriguing thing I learned was that any
[3:36] task
[3:38] that you can eliminate is 100
[3:40] Improvement
[3:42] so oftentimes a job or a task is a
[3:45] larger task made up of smaller tasks and
[3:49] we can at times try to optimize or
[3:50] improve the steps we take but sometimes
[3:53] rethinking the job and eliminating tasks
[3:57] entirely is is the best way to get a
[4:00] non-incremental Improvement so those are
[4:02] things that I learned on that first job
[4:06] um my formal education when I started
[4:09] that in college
[4:10] computers were just starting to be a
[4:12] thing because I'm almost as old as dirt
[4:15] right PCS weren't an item it was mostly
[4:18] mid-range and mainframes but I did
[4:21] observe I had two brothers one it was a
[4:23] an accountant ended up being a hospital
[4:26] administrator had another that was in
[4:28] I.T who was actually a programmer worked
[4:30] on large mainframes and I saw that they
[4:33] needed each other and they didn't talk
[4:35] well to each other the domain knowledge
[4:38] wasn't Rich at that point and so I
[4:41] resolved to fill that Gap it was a need
[4:43] that I perceived would be in the market
[4:45] and I I thought if I had both of those
[4:47] skills that would be useful
[4:49] and I learned toward the end of my
[4:51] career my education at college that
[4:54] there really was no spot in the middle
[4:56] at that time it was either one or the
[4:58] other you're either in in the financial
[5:00] world or accounting or you're in I.T
[5:03] and so
[5:05] um the decision I made
[5:07] um at the end of college I my degree was
[5:10] actually in accounting I had nearly a
[5:12] minor in computer science of course it's
[5:15] not like computer science these days but
[5:16] I had some some training there
[5:20] um I passed my CPA exam I got an offer
[5:22] from Arthur Young and Company to go to
[5:24] Omaha and work and then I got a call
[5:27] from a friend of mine or actually a
[5:30] former computer instructor my computer
[5:33] training at the college the construct
[5:35] what the instructor had moved to Florida
[5:38] to work for Florida Hospital
[5:40] and he called me up and asked me if I'd
[5:41] be interested in the job and I'd learned
[5:44] by that time I really didn't like
[5:45] accounting all that much and I also
[5:48] recognized that I had a knack for
[5:51] software development and so I accepted
[5:53] him uh and I came down to Florida
[5:55] Hospital in 1983.
[6:00] let's start working here
[6:03] now at that point it was those were
[6:05] early days right it was mostly mid-range
[6:07] and mainframes a small small crew I
[6:09] think the team was maybe 40 or 50 people
[6:11] that ran the Mainframe for the hospital
[6:12] there were no PCS
[6:14] and then a friend of mine named Jim
[6:16] Becker and I
[6:18] were assigned to bring in the first IBM
[6:21] PCS into the organization
[6:23] so we were a team if you can call to a
[6:26] team we are the initial team of two that
[6:28] brought brought those devices in and
[6:30] shortly thereafter started bringing in
[6:33] different
[6:34] local area network topologies to connect
[6:36] these devices
[6:38] it was an intriguing time there wasn't a
[6:40] lot of software available so we actually
[6:41] had to write other than word processing
[6:44] we we ended up writing whatever it is
[6:46] that people needed to have done the work
[6:48] was primarily focused at the c-suites
[6:50] that's where the money for these very
[6:52] expensive machines was focused and so I
[6:54] got I built some nice relationships and
[6:56] the c-suites and we would turn about 18
[6:59] applications a year I guess not that
[7:01] they're big but they were useful
[7:04] and so that came through over time but
[7:07] that was an interesting time to bring
[7:09] that on and then in the 1980s later in
[7:11] the 80s they determined that the systems
[7:14] they were running on the Mainframe
[7:15] they're in the hospital need to be
[7:17] replaced and there weren't a lot of
[7:19] options in the industry at that time
[7:21] they considered a couple products but
[7:23] decided to go their own way they decided
[7:25] to start a software company called
[7:27] Sunbelt systems Concepts
[7:30] and to write software with even the
[7:33] potential maybe of selling that at some
[7:34] point but primarily to write it for the
[7:37] use of Florida Hospital
[7:39] and so I joined that organization that
[7:42] they gave us a Mainframe a Cobalt
[7:43] compiler and a relational database
[7:45] called db2 and at the time we were
[7:48] taking a lot of heat nobody believed
[7:50] that a relational database could be used
[7:52] for a transactional system right you
[7:54] wouldn't base you'd use it for ad hoc
[7:57] reporting and that kind of things but
[7:58] they didn't think it would be be used
[8:00] for actually a system but we did use it
[8:02] and so we built up from scratch of
[8:04] architecture and
[8:07] because of my financial experience I was
[8:10] asked to help lead out the team that
[8:12] wrote the financial Suite the general
[8:13] ledger accounts payable inventory those
[8:15] kinds of systems
[8:17] but I also find myself gravitating
[8:18] toward uh
[8:20] accelerating development creating code
[8:23] generator and other rapid application
[8:26] development Frameworks in Cobalt on the
[8:29] Mainframe
[8:30] that was based on some work I'd done
[8:32] with on a side job prior to that
[8:36] and it ended up being productively
[8:38] really it accelerated our delivery such
[8:41] to the place that within five six years
[8:44] we had developed about 40 applications
[8:47] and when I say applications as things
[8:49] like Pharmacy Revenue billing
[8:52] inventory case management Pharmacy or
[8:57] other major systems so a team of well
[8:59] there might have been 40 50 individuals
[9:01] stood there
[9:04] is a Sunbelt that's a Sunbelt systems
[9:09] concept so that's correct yep and those
[9:12] systems then were installed
[9:15] starting in 90 all the way to 95 and
[9:18] then
[9:19] those systems continue to run they last
[9:22] about 25 years and just Sunset the last
[9:24] of what we called the sun care
[9:25] applications just in the last few years
[9:28] and then after that uh transitioned
[9:32] or actually as I was in the late 90s we
[9:34] were looking to maybe renew the suncare
[9:37] applications and looking for
[9:39] alternatives to Cobalt in the Mainframe
[9:41] and so
[9:42] I did some exploratory work and I
[9:46] brought Java to the organization in the
[9:47] late 90s
[9:49] um we're using a lot now but that was
[9:51] the first use of it then and we used it
[9:54] to extend the capabilities we brought
[9:58] graphical user interfaces and image
[10:01] capabilities to the suncare suite
[10:05] and then Downstream from that I also
[10:07] created a full-on application
[10:09] development framework along with some
[10:10] others Todd Parker was involved in that
[10:13] Chris Stroud helped out coin pivots
[10:18] Brian Green as well right at that time
[10:20] green yes our manager at that time
[10:23] uh-huh and and uh so we
[10:27] we created that framework it was used
[10:30] for quite a few projects in fact it's
[10:32] still in use now that we're in the
[10:33] process of sun setting it and uh it was
[10:36] going to primarily be around extending
[10:39] um sun care but now that's Sunset that's
[10:41] all that's Sunset as well so that's kind
[10:45] of where I got to now obviously working
[10:47] on
[10:48] yeah projects we're working on now for
[10:50] patient access
[10:52] I remember meeting with Brian Greene
[10:54] many years ago and he he was very
[10:56] proudly demoing that system for us
[11:01] um for I don't know what
[11:03] the background was but I remember uh
[11:06] talking with him and he was demoing us
[11:08] um what system it is yeah so that was a
[11:11] development too called radiant yeah I
[11:14] think that was probably what you knew it
[11:15] later got renamed but it was a very
[11:17] rapid platform it you could turn around
[11:20] applications uh super fast actually on
[11:23] Android and iOS
[11:25] so yeah
[11:27] not and desktop
[11:29] [Music]
[11:33] I was saying then we merged Advent
[11:37] health
[11:38] sorry Adventist Health System
[11:41] hss.hss is and then Florida in my uh and
[11:46] at that point we all under we all came
[11:49] under digital group
[11:51] that's correct in fact that's a
[11:53] reuniting of a previous division so yeah
[11:56] systems concept used to be combined and
[11:58] then about 96 or so
[12:00] the Florida Hospital those that
[12:03] supported Florida Hospital became part
[12:05] of Florida Hospital I.T and hsis were
[12:09] the remaining employees
[12:11] um that were out of the Sun Belt uh
[12:13] organizations I did not know that okay
[12:16] now I know so sun will become hsis and
[12:20] Florida Hospital Mis
[12:23] Sunbelt systems Concepts combined them
[12:26] okay to some measures right I mean there
[12:29] are still some separate operations
[12:30] internally but they were
[12:32] um all together until they were
[12:35] separated again in the mid 90s so it's
[12:37] good to have them get back together
[12:38] again yeah yeah really happy with what
[12:40] Brent has done all along the way very
[12:42] supportive what he's doing very happy to
[12:45] see uh the reunification I think this
[12:48] one's gonna stick
[12:49] yep and
[12:53] um I want to jump into this topic where
[12:56] you have
[12:58] don't know
[13:00] you have chosen different roles for us
[13:03] and move from one role to another so I
[13:07] wanted to learn the thought process
[13:09] behind
[13:11] um when you opted to become a manager
[13:14] and then you decided not to be a manager
[13:17] and then you did the exact same thing
[13:19] with the director position you you
[13:21] became a director and then you stepped
[13:24] down as an architect so what's the
[13:26] thought process your thought process
[13:28] behind those decisions
[13:31] yeah good question so yeah you did you
[13:35] explained two times where I stepped in
[13:37] but maybe considered a leadership role
[13:39] those that happened in the past as well
[13:43] um back through the 90s uh in each time
[13:45] uh same result I would step back away
[13:49] from the leadership position and uh it's
[13:52] really two axes that that spins up on
[13:54] one is
[13:57] um I find great enjoyment and
[14:00] fulfillment
[14:02] on the engineering side actually making
[14:05] the machine go and so you know
[14:08] if you think about a seal swimming in
[14:11] the ocean and finding a harbor they like
[14:12] to swim in
[14:13] that's my Harbor and not that I mind
[14:17] leading but it's not something I would
[14:19] do long term I think you could do it for
[14:21] a period of time I think there's others
[14:23] better at it
[14:24] I try to be helpful at the times I took
[14:27] those roles on
[14:29] um
[14:30] but tried to step away another example
[14:32] was we had the joint technology
[14:34] committee that's a I think it might
[14:36] still be running but it was known as
[14:37] that in the 90s where when we had the
[14:39] two separate organizations that were
[14:41] separate again we still wanted to have
[14:42] some shared conversation about
[14:45] shared technology and approaches and so
[14:47] we formed a committee and Brent asked me
[14:49] to lead that for a time and I did for a
[14:51] couple years but
[14:53] gladly had that transition back to some
[14:56] managers that really had the operating
[14:58] line of authority so that's that's one
[15:00] access that's one one answer to your
[15:02] question the other answer is related but
[15:05] a little more specific and that is
[15:07] I
[15:09] prefer to have jobs that aren't as front
[15:12] line with individuals
[15:15] um those those lock you to a time and a
[15:18] place
[15:19] right so as a manager
[15:22] um you have to be at a time out of place
[15:24] with certain people and not that that's
[15:26] bad but I like the independence of being
[15:29] able to shift time and place
[15:31] I see I see and it was for that same
[15:33] reason why it goes all the way back to
[15:36] my college decision not to go into
[15:38] medicine
[15:39] that's very restricted in time and place
[15:41] right right so
[15:44] um I I for my family reasons really and
[15:48] I didn't have a family at that time but
[15:49] looking forward and clearly once I had a
[15:52] family I wanted to spend some more time
[15:54] and so I was in the 90s one of the first
[15:56] that worked at home for many years it
[16:00] was great to be there while my my
[16:02] daughter was growing up and
[16:04] and being able to be a little more
[16:06] Mobile in fact it's all played out again
[16:09] the reason you're seeing me now sitting
[16:11] and it looks like an RV is because this
[16:12] is an RV I've after covid we we can't
[16:16] we're not back in the office and so I'm
[16:18] currently traveling about six or seven
[16:20] months out of the year
[16:22] but they're working full-time
[16:24] yeah and you couldn't do that
[16:28] it would just be hard to do that if
[16:30] you're locked in time in place
[16:32] yeah and uh you took care of your
[16:34] parents too in
[16:37] these times yeah that's correct in fact
[16:40] two times this time for Cove and my
[16:42] mother broke her knee and so I spent six
[16:44] weeks up there providing 24-hour care
[16:46] and uh in 2018 my father had a stroke
[16:50] and I took actually I took a leave of
[16:53] absence on unpaid leave for uh like six
[16:56] months and there was the time when you
[16:58] stepped down as a director that's
[17:00] correct that's that was uh exactly the
[17:03] time when I stepped down as directory it
[17:05] was made sense to do it that way
[17:08] that's when Jason now does a good job
[17:10] picked up and
[17:11] carried that forward yep
[17:16] so um
[17:20] there are many people who want to become
[17:23] a manager or a director
[17:27] um and I'm sure when when these
[17:30] situation and opportunity was there
[17:32] you probably have thought about it you
[17:35] probably have some preparation about it
[17:37] so what's your
[17:40] tips for somebody who want to become a
[17:44] manager and currently at the programming
[17:46] stage or senior person but not manager
[17:51] two things come to mind
[17:53] I measures a whole list if you go
[17:55] through but let's mention a couple one
[17:57] is you have to care for people
[18:01] um that's clearly a people position
[18:03] um if you don't care for people that's
[18:05] not a place to be
[18:07] and I think the job of that position is
[18:09] to do just that
[18:11] um so so I think that's important the
[18:13] other thing that's important is
[18:16] communication I think if you do care for
[18:19] people you need to also be obviously be
[18:21] able to communicate you've got to set
[18:22] vision and articulate be very clear on
[18:27] laying out the objectives of the
[18:29] organization to your team in support of
[18:32] those those initiatives and uh and that
[18:35] communication is really probably my
[18:37] estimation or my experience more
[18:39] listening than speaking it's not about I
[18:41] mean you need to be able to communicate
[18:42] thoughts and ideas tell the story that's
[18:44] in your head to others that's important
[18:47] to get them to buy in and be a part of a
[18:49] team
[18:50] but the listening both above and and
[18:54] beneath um yeah
[18:56] that is critical so those skills will
[18:59] get you a lot of mileage
[19:02] and how do you make other people believe
[19:05] like the people who are selecting you as
[19:07] a manager that
[19:10] um
[19:11] you you can do the job and that's I
[19:14] think that's where people kind of stuck
[19:18] to approach
[19:19] um
[19:20] kind of fear of rejection or fear of
[19:23] being not ready
[19:26] yeah no that's a good point that fear
[19:29] can stifle a person a lot
[19:33] it's very important at any level that a
[19:35] person be confident in your abilities
[19:38] and uh
[19:40] willing to take on tasks that you're
[19:42] uncertain of
[19:43] some of the best rides in or out of the
[19:46] workplace
[19:47] are chasing things that you haven't done
[19:50] or better yet those you don't even think
[19:53] can be done those are interesting
[19:55] Journeys to take
[19:57] uh there can be some fear around that
[20:00] [Music]
[20:01] so a person does need to get past that
[20:04] so that but that's what we bring to it
[20:06] uh you know you also asked about what
[20:08] you know
[20:09] you didn't say it exactly exactly a way
[20:11] but how do you get recognized and how do
[20:13] you get people to select you to do the
[20:14] job yeah yeah I don't know that have
[20:17] good answers for you because I have
[20:19] deliberately tried to not do that
[20:22] in fact I actually stopped some of my
[20:24] Advanced graduate postgraduate studies
[20:26] because I felt to put a Target on me to
[20:28] take in those roles that I didn't want
[20:30] to possess and and so uh but but I think
[20:35] foreign
[20:38] people doing an honest job staying alert
[20:42] communicating well caring about your job
[20:45] caring about people around you gets
[20:46] noticed
[20:48] and so in that regard I think it does
[20:52] put you on a list of people to be
[20:54] considered
[20:56] to help lead a team
[20:58] of course competence helps
[21:01] but uh and that that's a given right
[21:04] that's kind of a baseline I'll give you
[21:07] an example of that so
[21:09] why would I hire somebody build me a
[21:11] house well I don't go out and look for
[21:13] the first person knows how to drive
[21:15] nails and cut wood
[21:16] those are the skills and you must have
[21:18] those you need to be competent
[21:21] that's not why you hire somebody to do
[21:23] that job you hire somebody to do the job
[21:24] because you like their style you like
[21:26] the way you're treated you like the
[21:28] confidence that they instill as they're
[21:30] doing the project though they're
[21:31] statusing and Reporting they can give
[21:33] you it's all those intangibles that
[21:35] become very real and necessary is why
[21:38] you hire anybody to do anything for you
[21:41] and so those are the skills
[21:44] um I think you you've got to propose
[21:46] that you deliver those things that you
[21:48] would want if you were buying it if you
[21:51] were buying that service
[21:52] treat people nice
[21:55] that's the perfect and do your job yeah
[21:57] yeah
[21:59] now that being said you know it's great
[22:02] those managerial Rose director in
[22:04] particular it's one of the toughest
[22:06] positions in the organization and it's a
[22:08] wonderful role very rewarding but also
[22:11] very demanding because it's the first
[22:13] place at which you've got the the
[22:15] missionary you know the missional
[22:17] objectives coming down from the
[22:19] organization for you to execute on and a
[22:21] budget then to execute right that's
[22:24] really that first layer where that
[22:25] happens
[22:26] counting from the bottom up right so
[22:28] you're kind of pressed between the
[22:32] demands of what needs to take place then
[22:34] the constraints you have in delivering
[22:36] that which is very invigorating
[22:39] but also very very taxing and so it can
[22:43] be a pressure cooker at times you need
[22:44] to be ready for that
[22:46] yep
[22:48] uh Scott before we continue I want to
[22:51] apply a blur on our background there is
[22:56] a light on your head I think that may be
[23:00] um
[23:02] so I wonder if we do a blur or not
[23:07] it's fine I think I think you took care
[23:09] of it thank you
[23:12] um
[23:15] cool so
[23:17] one more question around this
[23:20] when you were becoming director over
[23:23] engineering
[23:24] what was your thought process what are
[23:27] the thing that you had in your mind that
[23:30] by becoming the director you will do
[23:34] this
[23:36] because you always go with the mindset
[23:39] that you're gonna contribute you're
[23:40] gonna serve you gonna add some value so
[23:43] I wanted to ask that question
[23:46] when you was you applied for that job
[23:48] for director position what was your
[23:51] thought process on what you wanted to
[23:53] contribute or what why you wanted that
[23:56] job I guess
[24:00] um so first let me clarify one thing I I
[24:04] actually didn't want the job and that
[24:06] and it's nothing against the job but for
[24:09] reasons I've talked about I think that's
[24:11] number I actually turned down the job
[24:12] three times and when I was asked to take
[24:15] it and so I was happy to take it I think
[24:18] so that's number one you did though ask
[24:20] and now having done that or you could
[24:24] say pursuing that that role what is it
[24:26] that you would do I I felt I needed to
[24:30] sharpen up in the areas of caring for
[24:33] people and making it safe for them to
[24:34] participate
[24:36] so that people can bring out their best
[24:38] and not no I don't have a long track
[24:40] record of being a manager I do care for
[24:42] people but it's something to be learned
[24:44] and so I did seek out advice
[24:47] we talk about listening you know for me
[24:49] it was a lot about listening talking to
[24:51] people been in the role
[24:54] um talking to people that have been
[24:55] above that role and what their
[24:57] expectations are of that role
[24:59] and of course talk to those which I was
[25:03] a peer among right having to report into
[25:05] that position so
[25:07] um
[25:08] I think I think treating people as they
[25:13] deserve was important
[25:15] I think speaking with these individuals
[25:18] that I mentioned are those roles that I
[25:20] mentioned helped me to gain a better
[25:23] appreciation for the specific tasks that
[25:26] need to be in play
[25:27] and some of the
[25:30] approaches to to be successful in that
[25:33] role so mentoring you know in a word
[25:36] um yeah uh admin health is a very good
[25:40] in supporting that uh David Oakley got
[25:43] me into a cohort for
[25:46] um for directors and that was super
[25:48] helpful again really mentoring and as
[25:51] part of that they asked that we find a
[25:54] mentor
[25:55] and uh that was super valuable for me in
[25:58] my case I got a hold of I wanted
[26:01] somebody that was maybe in the business
[26:04] had been in a business but got out and
[26:06] kind of had longer view of you know more
[26:08] reflective if you will as opposed to
[26:11] currently in the position so I reached
[26:12] out to a to a Marty and Blair Who was
[26:15] the past president of Florida Hospital
[26:18] in Advent Health we had a relationship
[26:20] that was built back in the early days
[26:21] when we were writing writing those first
[26:23] PCS and did a lot of projects for them
[26:25] and and other projects outside of work
[26:28] as well so
[26:30] um he was gracious enough to let me come
[26:32] and spend some sessions with him and
[26:34] that went a long way from my
[26:37] understanding of how to best fill that
[26:40] role
[26:44] awesome
[26:45] we'll come back to mentoring and
[26:47] coaching
[26:48] [Music]
[26:49] um
[26:50] but I wanted to share during this time
[26:52] when you became the director
[26:55] I got an opportunity to work with you as
[26:58] a manager there
[26:59] and I always remember the time when we
[27:03] had our one-on-one or whenever I come
[27:06] came to you with some
[27:10] either a challenge problem or a decision
[27:15] that to be made right so the the
[27:18] different situation
[27:20] and I I always remember that your first
[27:24] question you you listen right whatever I
[27:27] share that this is the challenge and
[27:29] this is what's happening and this is
[27:31] whether it is a people people related
[27:34] challenge or a situation related
[27:35] challenge or a project related
[27:38] um deadline related whatever it is you
[27:40] listen everything and then you you
[27:43] always ask a question so
[27:45] what do you think what are the option
[27:48] here and our words
[27:52] say that one option and you will
[27:54] encourage me to come up with three
[27:56] options
[27:58] so I would go back and work on three
[28:02] options and then you would listen to
[28:04] those three options and say
[28:07] um so which one would you recommend
[28:09] which one you would choose and I would
[28:12] say I would probably gonna go with
[28:15] second option and this and this and that
[28:18] and then you'll say then go for it and I
[28:22] would go so within a month or two
[28:25] whenever these type of challenge arrive
[28:28] whenever the situation occurs
[28:32] I know that if I go to you without this
[28:35] thought process
[28:37] um you would anyway gonna ask so I have
[28:40] to think ahead brainstorm and then come
[28:43] to you with three options and a selected
[28:47] option
[28:48] and you would let me choose whatever I
[28:51] recommend what happened over time that
[28:57] I made this as a practice and then it
[29:01] became very uh easier become very easier
[29:05] for me to come up with the three option
[29:07] and then choose something because
[29:10] you
[29:12] you let me do that and then also it kind
[29:16] of helped building the the courage and
[29:19] trust that this will be okay one other
[29:23] thing that happened with three options
[29:25] is
[29:27] um I get very
[29:29] tempted or emotional with one option
[29:34] but when you come with three options
[29:37] oh sorry step back I get very emotional
[29:41] with one option one solution because
[29:44] then you will think about
[29:46] yes it is good option but it's not a
[29:49] perfect option it has these two problem
[29:52] and you start thinking about how I can
[29:54] compensate the stroke problem to make it
[29:57] a better option but when you come up
[29:59] with three options
[30:00] you don't have to worry about this one
[30:04] option being a perfect option you think
[30:07] about all three and then you emotionally
[30:09] detach at least that's what happened in
[30:11] my case I emotionally detach with an
[30:15] option and I was able to put more logic
[30:17] and uh
[30:21] the decision making become easier for me
[30:25] so I wanted to share that
[30:27] this is a huge impact
[30:31] um
[30:31] made on my life when I was working with
[30:34] you on deciding the day-to-day thing or
[30:38] or some of the major thing
[30:40] so first of all thank you so much for
[30:42] introducing that that uh concept to me
[30:46] and now and sharing how it has impacted
[30:50] me how it has helped me grow
[30:52] under your leadership
[30:56] well I'm glad to hear you found it it
[30:57] was helpful
[30:58] it has been shared with um many times I
[31:03] know we do think we get good mileage out
[31:04] of it
[31:06] I can give you a little history of how
[31:08] that came to be if you're interested
[31:09] yeah yeah that's what I wanted to ask so
[31:11] that's impact and my understanding but I
[31:14] wanted to uh ask you how you came up
[31:17] with this option how you how you
[31:20] conceptualize so that whoever listening
[31:22] to this can learn directly from you and
[31:25] then also adopt and near their life
[31:28] well first of all I'm glad to hear that
[31:30] what you described your experience fits
[31:32] right in line with what the intended
[31:34] result was where this came from actually
[31:36] goes all the way back to uh the early
[31:39] days of
[31:40] the development when I was doing
[31:41] automation so it wasn't just tools that
[31:43] I was providing but also process so what
[31:46] I'm about to describe is developed over
[31:49] a period of years
[31:51] um
[31:51] kind of you know necessity makes is a
[31:54] good mother invention right so
[31:57] really it's two two primary things that
[32:00] take place here
[32:01] one is decision making
[32:05] many times I was finding myself and
[32:08] others and you can probably relate to
[32:09] this where you have a task to do and you
[32:12] jump in because we're anxious to get it
[32:14] going and we do the project and then we
[32:16] wake up some
[32:17] you know figuratively wake up some
[32:19] period in the future and say oh
[32:22] the list didn't turn out exactly the way
[32:24] I thought or I wish I'd have known now
[32:25] or have known then what I know now right
[32:28] and you might have a little rework that
[32:30] gets involved this is natural and can
[32:31] happen
[32:32] well it's it dawned on me that uh the
[32:37] difference what happened from the moment
[32:39] when you started the work and the time
[32:41] that you determined that you knew more
[32:44] well some of its experience having tried
[32:46] it but another part of just thinking
[32:47] about the problem a little longer right
[32:49] right and so so I use what I call time
[32:52] compression I didn't want to wait weeks
[32:55] or months to figure out that I didn't
[32:57] know something
[32:58] I want to compress that time so time
[33:00] compression was about being very in very
[33:04] direct and thoughtful and con and
[33:06] debating the topic from all angles to
[33:10] determine
[33:11] um
[33:12] what all can I know about this and
[33:16] triangulation is probably a good word
[33:18] for this you know we use triangulation
[33:20] in the physical sense for one dimension
[33:23] doesn't cut it for a lot of things we
[33:24] need to accomplish right so
[33:27] um this rule of three is I came to call
[33:29] it was simply this
[33:33] if you have a task to do
[33:35] and you haven't yet found three ways to
[33:38] do it you don't have one you can trust
[33:41] because you don't have one anything to
[33:42] compare it to and furthermore
[33:44] you haven't thought about it long enough
[33:46] you know there's at least three ways to
[33:48] do anything
[33:50] and if you haven't found them that means
[33:52] you haven't thought about it long enough
[33:53] if you haven't thought about it long
[33:55] enough there's likely you're going to do
[33:56] something you're going to step misstep
[33:58] somewhere along the path only to wake up
[34:00] and say oh I wish I'd have known it
[34:02] sooner right
[34:04] so that's that's one dimension of rule
[34:06] of three I think on that Dimension it's
[34:09] worth stating that the more that the
[34:12] decision or the task to be done is
[34:14] critical
[34:16] or subject to change meaning it might be
[34:19] in a hostile environment not hostile in
[34:22] terms of people but you know kind of
[34:24] could be challenged uh the more options
[34:27] you need
[34:28] I call it so time compression is one the
[34:31] other term I haven't kind of fed into
[34:33] this is uh
[34:35] slow down to speed up
[34:37] you you need to consider your steps you
[34:42] know when people say I don't have time
[34:43] to do something
[34:45] it could be said that they're really
[34:47] what they're really saying is they don't
[34:48] have time to do it twice right I mean
[34:50] you don't have time to do it clearly you
[34:52] don't have time to do it twice and so
[34:54] what you're saying is if I don't have
[34:55] time to do something I need to make sure
[34:56] that every step I take
[34:59] of the time that I can spend is taking
[35:01] you forward
[35:02] and and uh if we rush ahead without
[35:07] vetting out our options well
[35:12] we run the risk of doing exactly that
[35:14] taking backward steps in a time when you
[35:16] really can't afford it so even in the
[35:18] moments when you think you can least
[35:20] afford it you must do this and we found
[35:23] great benefit I'll give you one example
[35:26] we were I was loaned out to help
[35:29] organize a sub-organization was writing
[35:32] some software for one of our
[35:34] um related organizations and it was a
[35:36] regulatory change that had to be applied
[35:38] to some software some some enhancements
[35:40] and the kind of enhancement if you don't
[35:42] do it you close your you close your
[35:44] doors because you can't bill right so
[35:45] kind of important
[35:47] and the team that was assigned to do it
[35:48] was running behind the project was
[35:51] severely in the ditch there were some
[35:53] weeks I think might have been in the six
[35:54] or eight week range
[35:56] maybe two months uh over two months I
[35:59] thought perhaps anyway so we were asked
[36:01] to come in so I came in I brought Todd
[36:03] Barker with me
[36:05] and we I knew the rule of three works
[36:08] and so we spent the first we didn't just
[36:11] dump it on them what we did is we spent
[36:13] we came in on a Wednesday Tuesday or
[36:15] Wednesday and we said time out you know
[36:18] you got to stop working for a minute
[36:19] which really irritated them because I
[36:21] knew they were in a ditch and we're
[36:22] hustling working hard
[36:24] and they said I said can you get us up
[36:26] to speed you know get us the domain
[36:28] knowledge tell us where we're at and so
[36:30] it took three days
[36:31] and they were not happy and we weren't
[36:34] happy having to stop them but we get to
[36:35] Friday and they had a solution they said
[36:37] yeah yeah this would be a good plan
[36:39] and then and then I gave him the good
[36:42] news which they didn't think was good
[36:44] news and that is they needed two more
[36:45] options
[36:47] and they would have liked to kick us out
[36:48] of the room it was it was tense so you
[36:50] could cut the tension with a knife
[36:51] literally and and we didn't know if they
[36:54] were so Todd and I go back to our hotel
[36:56] we we didn't know if they were going to
[36:58] let us in Monday or or if we got in or
[37:01] whether they were going to be there it
[37:02] was not good
[37:04] but fortunately when you look at your
[37:06] second third fourth or 18th option as
[37:08] we've done in some of our projects you
[37:10] already have the pieces in your head and
[37:12] now you just have to arrange them or
[37:14] take some out or add some new pieces
[37:15] right you're not starting over so by
[37:17] Tuesday of the following week
[37:19] we had our third option
[37:21] it was critical enough we probably
[37:23] should have done two more iterations but
[37:24] three was enough I found that two never
[37:26] works well enough three is a minimum
[37:30] so they picked one and I can't remember
[37:32] it wasn't the first one I don't remember
[37:33] what if it was two or three that they
[37:34] picked
[37:35] fast forward to the end of the project
[37:38] we we came in ahead of the deadline
[37:40] everybody was happy smiles on the faces
[37:43] as part of an exit process
[37:45] Todd and I brought them back in the same
[37:47] room where we started this process and I
[37:50] asked him a question I said what if we
[37:53] had proceeded on that Friday come in
[37:55] Monday and do the option that we had on
[37:56] your head on on Friday
[37:58] and it was amazing their face has gotten
[38:01] long you're looking and says oh my
[38:03] goodness we would still be working and
[38:05] we may not hit it
[38:06] they and so part of this you know back
[38:10] to the things I learned working for my
[38:12] father in construction eliminating tasks
[38:14] is 100 Improvement in there and so as
[38:17] you're iterating through your options if
[38:19] you find
[38:20] not if when you find that the solution
[38:23] starts to simplify you know you're on
[38:25] the right path
[38:27] now there is no best we use that word
[38:30] but there's no best every option that
[38:32] you pick has shine and Shadow right
[38:34] there's there's compromise there is you
[38:37] know you can't ever get a solution in
[38:39] life it's without any consequences
[38:41] so the balance is or the effort here is
[38:44] to try to find their best balance
[38:46] between shine and Shadow emphasize bring
[38:49] out the shine and try to minimize the
[38:51] shadow to the best you can and that's
[38:53] how you guide your your rule of three so
[38:55] that's axis number one the second
[38:57] element of the rule of three is a human
[38:59] Dynamic which I think is probably
[39:03] more important than the than the first
[39:06] the first one's a tactical thing and it
[39:08] has great value because you can use it
[39:10] individually but the second aspect here
[39:12] is a team Dynamic and that is
[39:14] you want people on the team to be
[39:17] providing their best all the time
[39:20] right
[39:21] and there's many personalities on a team
[39:25] and so those personalities could range
[39:27] from someone who is very outspoken it
[39:30] dominates a conversation and maybe is an
[39:32] add to that maybe I'm just making
[39:34] somebody up here right and making it
[39:35] yeah one end of the spectrum they're
[39:37] very outspoken and very defensive kind
[39:40] of you mentioned like you get emotional
[39:42] about their option right and so they can
[39:44] run a team over
[39:46] uh the other end of the spectrum you
[39:48] might have somebody that's well
[39:49] considered but shine doesn't want to
[39:51] talk and and somewhere in the middle you
[39:53] might have somebody that says you know I
[39:54] I have an idea but I don't want to share
[39:56] because it's not perfect
[39:58] it's not best or people might not make
[40:00] fun of me or I haven't thought through
[40:01] it completely
[40:02] and so
[40:04] this all gets in the way of progress
[40:06] you don't get a good product and you
[40:08] certainly don't get it fast if that's
[40:10] happening and so the rule of three is is
[40:13] the process side of this is geared
[40:15] exactly at that problem what we say is
[40:18] you come to the table like you did to me
[40:20] with three options
[40:22] and then we do it as a team three
[40:23] options but when the person brings it to
[40:26] the team they'll say well here's option
[40:28] one two and three and I think two is
[40:30] best and well here's why I don't like
[40:31] number one and here's the another
[40:33] they're describing the shine and Shadow
[40:34] of each of those eyes yeah
[40:37] and then and then you you coach them
[40:39] forward to say well and then they should
[40:41] say and what's option four what's wrong
[40:43] with the one I like not not as a
[40:45] challenge but a recognition that none of
[40:47] them are right
[40:49] in fact we've already saw that none of
[40:50] them are best ever right so we're just
[40:52] picking one and so and so the person in
[40:56] the middle that I spoke of that says
[40:57] they didn't want to share because I
[40:58] haven't thought it through entirely they
[41:00] don't need to they can just share
[41:02] because it's not the solution right what
[41:05] this is based on it's the idea that
[41:07] ideas feed on ideas
[41:10] we know this to be true right and so
[41:13] some of the options we've done in
[41:14] brainstorming sessions in rule three as
[41:16] a team once somebody's brought their
[41:18] their task to the plate is sometimes
[41:21] crazy ideas just nuts
[41:23] but it triggers something in the next
[41:25] mind right and so you get this genetic
[41:27] diversity of Minds coming into the into
[41:30] the problem space where we're no longer
[41:32] debating personalities they're trying to
[41:35] defend positions we're openly debating
[41:37] the issue and so it makes things go very
[41:40] fast it lets everybody share uh you know
[41:44] for the person that's overrunning the
[41:45] group you have an opportunity when they
[41:47] say well what's better right how can we
[41:49] what's the next option what's number
[41:51] seven what's number eight it gives
[41:53] people an opportunity to join in and
[41:55] those who are shy they don't have you
[41:57] know they can learn that they don't have
[41:58] to be you know so so hesitant so so it's
[42:01] about yes it's a tactical technique to
[42:04] help you I've used it everywhere in my
[42:07] life now
[42:09] the way I buy socks I mean some I
[42:11] literally sometimes buy three things
[42:13] same product three different types just
[42:14] to compare it's a sickness that I have
[42:16] perhaps it could be considered that very
[42:19] useful very fun and in a group setting
[42:23] it's a great Dynamic to empower people
[42:25] to bring their best and bring it early
[42:28] and often
[42:30] so that's really free
[42:32] yep and I did experience the situation
[42:36] where
[42:37] some people
[42:38] like you said were shy and some of them
[42:41] were not and then the people who are not
[42:44] shy to take over typically the
[42:47] conversation
[42:51] um
[42:51] I want to go back to the mentor and
[42:54] coaching so
[42:56] um in
[42:59] without taking name we have uh many new
[43:02] managers
[43:05] um
[43:07] and
[43:09] I know how much and should I say I'm
[43:12] lucky enough to have both mentor and
[43:15] coaches within Advent Health who have
[43:17] been very helpful bad at hand I don't
[43:19] know if you remember know him but bear
[43:22] and hand on very well good yeah he has
[43:25] been mentoring me for a long time I
[43:29] think that's the first thing that I did
[43:30] when I became manager the next day or
[43:34] the same day I went to him and I asked I
[43:37] just got promotion and
[43:40] I want to request if you will become my
[43:43] mentor
[43:44] and I admire him for a long time and he
[43:48] said yes and we we started that Journey
[43:50] since then and Nikki Trotter from the HR
[43:54] team she has been she she coached me uh
[43:59] when I was not sure what's the next
[44:01] thing that I wanted to do
[44:04] um
[44:04] and many other people who have helped
[44:07] through this journey so
[44:11] what I wanted to ask
[44:14] your perspective on let's say new
[44:17] managers that we have or somebody who
[44:20] want to become manager
[44:23] how they can find a mentor and what
[44:27] benefit that they could get from that
[44:30] mentorship and coaching
[44:34] you know for me it's what you did what
[44:37] you described is exactly how you find
[44:38] your Mentor you find somebody you
[44:40] respect it's doing
[44:41] you know if I want to go out and learn
[44:43] how to hit a hit a baseball
[44:45] I'm not going to go to somebody that
[44:48] doesn't play the sport
[44:49] so obviously you're going to be somebody
[44:51] in this but then you wanna there's a big
[44:54] variety of skill sets right and so the
[44:57] heroes that we have in sports or other
[44:59] venues you want to emulate and so you
[45:01] you know
[45:03] um you'll be attracted to certain uh
[45:05] attributes of individuals and and that's
[45:09] where I think you begin I I think it
[45:11] would be for me a little scary to say
[45:12] I'm looking for a coach like a yellow
[45:14] pages right and there's one on a list I
[45:16] pick a door I get an advice because
[45:19] there's also some chemistry that has to
[45:20] happen with your Mentor but
[45:22] they're around if you pay attention uh
[45:26] you might want different mentors for
[45:27] different aspects now bear at hand uh
[45:30] great great choice I'm really happy for
[45:32] you you got to to hook up with him
[45:36] so I think it's about observe you know
[45:38] observing Behavior if somebody's doing
[45:40] something that you respect
[45:42] and they you've seen them deal with
[45:44] situations and and handle it in ways
[45:46] that you admire
[45:48] um those are who you go after which is
[45:50] why I went after in my case I'm already
[45:51] in Blair it's uh
[45:53] um so I think I think you need to have
[45:55] some familiarity be alert be looking be
[45:58] listening right uh
[46:00] absorbing and so I that's
[46:03] probably that's my two cents that's how
[46:05] I I went after my mentor and it sounds
[46:07] like you did as well
[46:10] it's called I just wanted to give you a
[46:12] quick heads up that at around 4 25 4 30
[46:17] I will have to leave to pick up my
[46:19] daughter
[46:21] um
[46:23] Brian guessing our conversation would go
[46:25] longer so maybe we can do a follow-up
[46:29] but uh
[46:31] um my next question is around goal
[46:33] setting and time management how you do
[46:35] that
[46:36] for your personal or in general right
[46:39] your professional as well as personal
[46:43] professional
[46:45] um
[46:47] my goal setting is focused around
[46:50] looking for problems to solve
[46:53] it started with a mentor I had named Bob
[46:55] Wright up back in the 80s
[46:57] a young guy struggling on new new tech
[47:00] stack and so it was new and and when he
[47:02] saw me struggling he'd say oh what are
[47:04] you doing and I tell him oh cool can I
[47:06] help
[47:07] I remember when I told him I had a
[47:08] problem he thought that was nice and
[47:09] he's just going to help and I have
[47:11] really admired that how you know I so
[47:14] for my money I thought if you could help
[47:16] people solve problems
[47:17] people like that and there's probably
[47:20] some you probably want to keep you
[47:22] around and you get to solve interesting
[47:24] issues and so goal setting for me is
[47:26] identifying
[47:28] problems that need to be solved
[47:30] and in addition to that things that I
[47:32] find interesting and challenging
[47:34] especially things that seem
[47:37] hard to reach
[47:40] um
[47:41] so
[47:43] I think my goals have been really around
[47:46] being service to others
[47:48] you know that really solidified for me
[47:50] so I'm passionate about it the reason
[47:51] I'm passionate about is or one of the
[47:53] reasons
[47:54] that my passion increases back in 18
[47:56] 1989 I was diagnosed with Hodgkin's
[47:59] disease so that's an interesting thing
[48:01] now you you know your form of death and
[48:04] you know the timeline that it's running
[48:05] on
[48:06] well that's a humbling experience
[48:09] and you realize that the world doesn't
[48:11] you know you're going to be gone the
[48:13] world doesn't need you obviously that
[48:14] happens to all of us so maybe this
[48:16] realization I should have had anyway
[48:17] because we're all on this path
[48:19] regardless of whether you know now I'm
[48:20] clueless like everybody else I don't
[48:22] know what I'm dying from but I I still
[48:23] am but it was interesting because it
[48:26] have you know have that in a very
[48:27] intense way to realize that uh that your
[48:31] service can end and that's okay but I
[48:33] thought well you know wouldn't it be
[48:34] nice if you could do something where
[48:35] your service continues to help I really
[48:37] I was passionate about the organization
[48:39] still am wanted to help that's why I'm
[48:41] here wanted to serve and and uh
[48:44] so I I found myself gravitating into
[48:47] goals that would allow me to do things
[48:49] that would leverage not only my time but
[48:52] other people's time
[48:54] so that's why for the probably the last
[48:56] 15 20 15 years 20 half of my career
[48:58] anyway
[48:59] the later half been focused around
[49:03] the process of software development
[49:05] tooling to drive that faster processes
[49:08] rule of three being one among others
[49:09] that would improve the human
[49:11] interactions around that so that we can
[49:13] get
[49:15] and why is this here's something that
[49:17] dawned on me that helped with goal
[49:19] setting I think in terms of how you pick
[49:20] your goals and and how you execute on
[49:23] them
[49:24] we have to not be too much in love with
[49:26] the job we do not saying don't enjoy
[49:29] your job I love my job and I love the
[49:31] people I work with
[49:33] but we have to have an honest
[49:34] realization a humility to under humility
[49:37] to understand that we are also part of
[49:39] the problem
[49:41] if you come to me to do something
[49:45] if I were taking if it took me two years
[49:48] to get the job done is that helping you
[49:51] no no I'll give you an example you want
[49:53] to buy a car you kind of want to have it
[49:56] soon enough to go buy some groceries
[49:58] right right so no I could be the
[50:01] manufacturer of cars and let's say I
[50:02] didn't have a way to get them to you
[50:04] quickly I'm a good car manufacturer but
[50:06] it's going to take me six months
[50:08] I'm part of a problem
[50:11] you with me yep so so we are part of the
[50:15] problem to the extent that we can't get
[50:17] the execution completed in a timely
[50:18] enough basis
[50:20] okay so so all I'm suggesting is the
[50:23] longer it takes to do a task the more
[50:25] you're part of the your part of the
[50:27] solution for the truer but you're also
[50:29] part of the problem that you're trying
[50:31] to solve and so we have to get out of
[50:33] the way of ourselves
[50:35] what that means is how can I eliminate
[50:38] tasks to get 100 Improvement how can I
[50:42] automate where I can how can I change a
[50:45] process so I'm thinking faster quicker
[50:46] getting people to contribute anything to
[50:49] accelerate
[50:50] so that's what I mean by not loving your
[50:52] job too much you need to get out of the
[50:54] way yeah we're there to serve I see what
[50:57] you mean yeah we're there to serve and
[50:59] get out of the way get get people
[51:00] connected with the thing they desire
[51:02] play our role in that but once they're
[51:05] connected
[51:07] we go on we're on to the next job and so
[51:09] one discipline that I do personally and
[51:12] it's so it's kind of the sounds like the
[51:14] converse of goal setting but it does
[51:15] help
[51:16] and that is I actively try to forget
[51:19] everything I've ever done
[51:21] now I don't try to forget how to do
[51:23] things but I try to forget what I did
[51:26] so for instance I may know how to build
[51:30] a home
[51:31] or barn or a car
[51:34] and so those techniques I retain but I
[51:37] don't remember the house I built or the
[51:39] barn I built or the car I built those
[51:41] that's too much to carry
[51:43] and so
[51:45] now is it too much to carry I don't want
[51:48] to get you know we always talk about
[51:49] thinking outside of the box well who
[51:52] built the Box we built the box so don't
[51:55] build the Box
[51:56] and the way I try to do that in my
[51:59] feeble way is to say
[52:01] you know I don't want to come into a
[52:03] problem that you give me give me a task
[52:05] to do and I try to get out of the way by
[52:06] getting it done and say well you know
[52:08] problem you gave me looks green and the
[52:10] last green problem I had I solved this
[52:12] way
[52:13] well that's a box right I just Define
[52:16] almost the definition of a box and so if
[52:20] but now imagine this if I don't remember
[52:23] how I did a green thing now I know how
[52:25] to I know how to build colorful things
[52:27] but if I don't remember how I built the
[52:28] green thing I won't be tempted to repeat
[52:30] what I did last time
[52:32] and so I actively do try to forget
[52:34] everything that I have done I've
[52:36] actually had people come to me asking
[52:38] advice on software I said well yeah I
[52:40] come to me I'll help them then I said
[52:42] well why'd you come to me they said well
[52:43] you wrote it and I said no and they said
[52:46] yes and my name was Paul over the
[52:47] comments and the code I don't remember
[52:49] having ever written it that's happened
[52:50] multiple times but most recently with
[52:53] pavon just a couple years ago in a small
[52:56] segment of work that was done and so I
[52:58] think it's important so for me that's a
[53:01] form of goal setting in that the goal is
[53:03] the pursuit of the next thing to do the
[53:06] problem to solve being helpful to people
[53:08] but doing it in a in a fresh way each
[53:11] time each time you go after it forget
[53:15] about what you did before
[53:16] in fact better yet just don't ever if
[53:19] you you don't forget it if you never
[53:20] remembered it right you don't have to
[53:22] forget it again every project you just
[53:23] just do away with that and so forgetting
[53:26] has been super helpful for me as a
[53:28] technique to not only you're not
[53:30] carrying baggage with you you move
[53:32] faster right
[53:33] um but you you you can attack new
[53:36] problems that are ready paced so it's
[53:38] been super helpful for me
[53:40] that's a great concept I I wasn't aware
[53:42] of uh this thought process this
[53:45] philosophy of years but I like it
[53:49] now there's some Shadow to that I
[53:51] sometimes forget things I have to
[53:52] remember
[53:53] no maybe it's because of age but it's
[53:55] been going on for a long time it's
[53:56] actually discipline that uh as long as
[53:59] we all are not forgetting our wife name
[54:01] we are okay
[54:03] still good there still good
[54:05] 40 years next month
[54:08] oh wow congratulations thank you
[54:11] we are running 22.
[54:14] excellent 22 years that's a nice round
[54:16] number congratulations sir
[54:19] thank you
[54:21] um
[54:22] have you ever thought about having your
[54:25] own business or having your own
[54:29] um something
[54:30] yeah I know you did some part-time
[54:32] things but not like business
[54:35] yeah no I've actually started two
[54:37] corporations software development
[54:40] related the one was in the 80s which
[54:43] actually led to my ability to do some of
[54:45] the auto automation I did for the
[54:47] suncare suite of software in the 90s so
[54:52] um and I also started a company
[54:54] um there was an idea I had which is a
[54:57] whole other conversation the short story
[54:58] is
[54:59] um you know we talk about eliminating
[55:01] tasks
[55:02] and for software development if you
[55:03] counted I counted depending how you
[55:05] counted they're six to nine steps you
[55:07] kind of go through to build software
[55:09] and based on what I learned from my
[55:11] dad's crew if I could eliminate a step
[55:13] wouldn't that be great well I found that
[55:16] eliminating a step was can't be done
[55:18] those steps are necessary
[55:19] and yet I wanted to deliver to do that
[55:22] and so the person who gives us our
[55:24] breath gave me an idea and the idea was
[55:25] this he said you wanting to eliminate
[55:28] steps in software development I said yes
[55:30] he said then you can't because they're
[55:31] fatal yes well they said if they're
[55:33] fatal is there any is it any more fatal
[55:35] to remove all the steps
[55:37] what if you could use software before
[55:39] you write it
[55:40] okay well that's absurd I thought and
[55:44] and yet the question that was presented
[55:45] to me stuck with me six months I
[55:47] couldn't shake it out of that came up a
[55:50] methodology and a theory that you can in
[55:55] fact do that in some way the software is
[55:58] interesting because it's not constrained
[56:00] like physics you don't have gravity and
[56:03] pencil strength and you know real things
[56:06] we have to deal with we man-made the
[56:07] rules we can bend them a little bit
[56:09] right and so we actually sold the idea
[56:12] internally at the hospital
[56:14] uh it was of some interest but the in my
[56:19] estimation in their estimation it was
[56:21] probably 25 chance of a return on
[56:23] investment which is not good right and
[56:26] so they opted to not pursue it but I
[56:29] started a company with a friend of mine
[56:30] Scott Morrell
[56:33] and said this sounds like an interesting
[56:34] problem because number one it's actually
[56:36] literally impossible
[56:38] but if we Chase it we'll probably get
[56:41] some interesting artifacts since we
[56:42] started a company called ceronics and we
[56:45] chased that and in three years time we
[56:47] actually had a working prototype that
[56:49] says yes you could use software before
[56:50] you ride and that's a whole story as we
[56:52] get into it and out of that came radiant
[56:54] which is a scale back version of that
[56:56] that we saw many of the benefits of
[56:58] Rapid development there but not to the
[57:00] extent that we had originally been I
[57:02] think that's something I probably still
[57:03] want to go chase again so yes but both
[57:06] of those companies were never started
[57:07] for funding much like the jobs that I
[57:10] take I never I'm not working because of
[57:12] they pay
[57:13] although I need pay I mean we need that
[57:15] but that's nothing I've ever pursued I
[57:18] started those companies as a working lab
[57:21] the idea being you get I could do some
[57:24] things that I didn't wasn't able to do
[57:26] in my employed job right
[57:29] but you've got to set it up in a
[57:31] structure to start you don't know if it
[57:33] works unless somebody will give you
[57:35] money for it right that's kind of the
[57:37] test you're doing something for somebody
[57:38] adding some value right and so so I did
[57:42] that and then once they become became
[57:44] somewhat operationally it's the first
[57:46] one it became operational I lost
[57:48] interest in it because it locked me in
[57:49] time and place and the people that come
[57:52] to me for support and so I I
[57:55] we got rid of the customers encourage
[57:57] them to go elsewhere over a period of
[57:59] years and and shut that company down and
[58:01] then same with the second one for other
[58:04] reasons we've determined mostly personal
[58:06] reasons we've determined not to continue
[58:08] to invest our time in chasing uh what
[58:12] was radiant and it was really a rocket
[58:15] sled of a ride that's a great tool and
[58:17] we just don't have the time to pursue it
[58:19] so
[58:21] I don't know if that's helpful
[58:23] yeah that's a good question
[58:26] my last question for today is what's
[58:29] your message to the audience audience
[58:32] being the people who are in the early or
[58:35] late career and trying to see what their
[58:39] future looks like next five ten years
[58:41] looks like
[58:44] so you're talking about career growth
[58:45] kind of a path if they were to chase
[58:47] yeah
[58:48] well we mentioned one already and that
[58:50] is caring about people
[58:52] um you know we can think too much about
[58:54] our job sometimes but jobs always about
[58:57] people that's where the value is and so
[58:59] you got to keep those first and foremost
[59:01] no matter what your trade is secondarily
[59:03] obviously the obvious one is acquire
[59:05] skills but I would say acquire a variety
[59:08] of skills some of the most proficient
[59:10] and prolific uh contributors I've seen
[59:13] actually have crossed up skills from
[59:16] Arts to uh multiple technical streams or
[59:20] something completely Arts and Science
[59:21] has kind of Blended up so a variety of
[59:24] skills I think it challenges the mind in
[59:25] interesting ways and they they
[59:28] benefit each other again ideas feed on
[59:32] you know feed on ideas
[59:35] um and then once you have those you got
[59:36] to believe believe in yourself and your
[59:39] abilities there's going to be plenty of
[59:41] reasons to doubt yourself given by your
[59:43] own mind or other people's minds about
[59:45] your position and so you have to be
[59:47] confident and and if you're not you know
[59:49] help there are people who can help you
[59:51] find that again through mentorship
[59:53] but I think the Big Thing Once those are
[59:55] in place that's kind of the plateau or
[59:57] kind of the assumed bits
[1:00:00] um I think it's so important to learn
[1:00:03] how to communicate you know everything
[1:00:04] we do you have to sell now I'm not
[1:00:06] talking sales
[1:00:07] leading a team or working on a team and
[1:00:10] you got an idea aren't you selling that
[1:00:11] idea in a sense you are right you have
[1:00:14] to communicate that and so you need to
[1:00:16] know how to communicate well and there's
[1:00:19] three aspects in my mind to that one is
[1:00:20] you need to listen well to others
[1:00:23] if you can't listen well you're not
[1:00:25] communicating well right and it's it is
[1:00:28] through what people say that's the
[1:00:29] majority of the communication is right
[1:00:30] there
[1:00:32] um everybody has wisdom to share and you
[1:00:35] want to gather as much of that as you
[1:00:37] can possibly absorb and you only get
[1:00:40] that through listening and that will
[1:00:42] help you it'll help them your career
[1:00:44] will expand because of that second part
[1:00:46] of communication I think is uh you need
[1:00:49] to be able to explain your thoughts
[1:00:50] clearly so that other people can act on
[1:00:54] them and buy you know be part of you
[1:00:56] know if either you're buying into their
[1:00:58] idea that they're selling or you're
[1:00:59] selling one to them but if yours is a
[1:01:01] role to sell and you have that moment
[1:01:03] you must be a good communicator so
[1:01:06] taking
[1:01:07] even formal training but some ways to
[1:01:11] verbally and pictorially and uh
[1:01:15] you know
[1:01:16] in Pro in writing things out you need to
[1:01:19] do that and the third aspect of
[1:01:21] listening I would say listening to
[1:01:22] yourself what I'm mean by listening to
[1:01:24] yourself is
[1:01:27] you must put into words
[1:01:29] the thing that you want to do
[1:01:31] and that's for your own benefit right so
[1:01:34] what I've found
[1:01:36] it seems to obviously I should have
[1:01:38] known this a long time ago but over the
[1:01:40] years I've it's been true for me that if
[1:01:42] you can't describe in words what you
[1:01:45] want to do to some level of specif
[1:01:47] specificity
[1:01:48] you'll never get it done you can't do it
[1:01:51] if you can't describe it
[1:01:53] right and so be so be good at describing
[1:01:55] it to yourself and listen to yourself
[1:01:58] and that builds back to the second goal
[1:02:00] and that is communicating that to others
[1:02:01] right so
[1:02:02] um
[1:02:03] so I think the communication is learn
[1:02:05] how to describe that which is necessary
[1:02:10] effectively for yourself first and to
[1:02:13] others
[1:02:14] and then lastly I think read
[1:02:17] um and read broadly really I think it's
[1:02:20] about training your mind to uh
[1:02:24] search and absorb right it's kind of a
[1:02:27] mission to it you know go in Pursuit and
[1:02:30] you're absorbing information and so and
[1:02:32] that that's just not your own field of
[1:02:34] study broadly again these these ideas
[1:02:37] feed on each other and we're we're
[1:02:39] Stronger by a hybrid of
[1:02:42] of skills that are brought together so
[1:02:44] so broad reading and the last I think
[1:02:46] rule of three works also in Korea
[1:02:48] there's options and that's that's a
[1:02:51] sickness I possess right and it's been
[1:02:53] helpful in that way uh so yeah consider
[1:02:56] your options
[1:02:58] there's more than you ever thought there
[1:03:00] are and that I had a case with Chris
[1:03:03] trout one time we were both Believers in
[1:03:04] rule of three we've seen it work way too
[1:03:06] many times to believe otherwise and we
[1:03:08] have we're at option number two and
[1:03:10] there was still some Shadow we didn't
[1:03:12] like and after about two a week or maybe
[1:03:14] two weeks Chris came to me says you know
[1:03:17] there isn't a third option we don't like
[1:03:20] the shadow but you know
[1:03:22] and I said well yeah but you know just
[1:03:25] on the principle of the thing let's go
[1:03:26] back and talk to I think we chose to go
[1:03:28] back to speak with Todd Parker he was on
[1:03:30] our team
[1:03:31] and he said well we've already spoken to
[1:03:33] Todd I said yeah I know we have but
[1:03:34] let's go back one more time
[1:03:36] we found number three and this shadow
[1:03:38] went away
[1:03:39] and so so it's not about the
[1:03:41] intelligence of any one individual is
[1:03:43] that team and we'd already had the
[1:03:44] conversation but by going at it again uh
[1:03:49] the the the genius there is ideas
[1:03:52] feeding ideas we had a we came in with a
[1:03:54] different set of ideas and we discussed
[1:03:56] the expansion of those ideas
[1:03:59] and three we found three and I've never
[1:04:02] found it less than three working it just
[1:04:04] doesn't work I sent Chris off on one
[1:04:07] that was very critical and very subject
[1:04:10] to change
[1:04:11] uh
[1:04:13] Rebecca Quinn and who's terrific on our
[1:04:16] team she came in hired her as a
[1:04:18] non-technical person on a technical
[1:04:19] project and it was the best decision we
[1:04:21] ever did that blending of skills was
[1:04:24] tremendous and so they went away and
[1:04:27] came back with 18 options or evaluated
[1:04:29] 18 options as part of them coming back
[1:04:31] it didn't take that long but it was a
[1:04:33] serious effort and and through it really
[1:04:36] that was a discussion of all the
[1:04:37] variables that were in play and so the
[1:04:39] more complex
[1:04:40] the situation the more variables there
[1:04:43] are obviously more solutions you can
[1:04:44] come up with but
[1:04:46] three is
[1:04:47] now I've had several times and you don't
[1:04:49] think you can come up with three end up
[1:04:50] with six it's amazing if you apply
[1:04:53] yourself and I've never found a time and
[1:04:55] to those that I speak to that have that
[1:04:58] have applied this in their lives
[1:05:01] I haven't heard of them saying that they
[1:05:02] have ever found a time when the payback
[1:05:05] isn't there in your time savings
[1:05:07] anytime you spend
[1:05:09] working on your options
[1:05:11] is saved over the course of the project
[1:05:13] I have not seen it fail
[1:05:16] so slow down to speed up absolutely
[1:05:19] compressed time learn today what you can
[1:05:21] learn you know through experience yeah
[1:05:23] you still need experience but this this
[1:05:25] helps this this does compress time
[1:05:29] thank you so much for your time today
[1:05:32] um it's been enjoyed talking to you fun
[1:05:34] conversation well I enjoyed it as well
[1:05:38] it's fun to talk about issues that are
[1:05:40] of interest to us yeah I appreciate the
[1:05:43] opportunity to do that with you have a
[1:05:45] good evening you too is God
[1:05:49] [Music]
[1:05:55] [Music]