Mike Tomasello is the CEO of Career Success Secrets and has been recognized as a top career thought leader by Shark Tank's Kevin Harrington. Despite being a self-described strong introvert, he has led both startup and Fortune 100 teams across multiple countries with $1 billion in strategic responsibilities and has spent 24 years interviewing thousands of senior executives to research career success.
Mike Tomasello's overarching message centers on the critical importance of taking action despite fear or uncertainty. He emphasizes that job searching is fundamentally a numbers game where traditional approaches yield less than 1% success rates, while strategic networking and direct outreach can increase success rates by 20-40 times. His advice is particularly powerful for recent graduates and those feeling overwhelmed by the process: "You don't have to be traditionally successful at college or university to use any of the stuff that we're talking about. All you need to do is have a degree and have a connection to the school."
Tomasello's philosophy extends beyond just job searching techniques to a broader approach to career success. He advocates for an engineering mindset - testing what works, measuring results, and continuously refining the approach. His personal story of falling asleep in his first interview yet going on to lead billion-dollar initiatives demonstrates that early setbacks don't define career potential. For anyone struggling with their career direction, he returns to his foundational principle: "If you're feeling stuck in your career or you're feeling unhappy in your career, it's probably because you've lost sight or you haven't made a decision around what is your next destination." The key is starting with clarity about what you want, then systematically building the relationships and taking the strategic actions necessary to achieve those goals.
"Step one is always Clarity. Your resume or your CV is a marketing document which is specifically designed to get you one type of position."
— Mike Tomasello Explaining how modern resumes should be targeted marketing documents rather than comprehensive career histories.
"Stop applying online and track down the name of the hiring manager and apply to the hiring manager directly. You get around getting stuck in a database and you look different because you're not one of the 200 or 2,000 other people."
— Mike Tomasello Offering a strategic approach to bypass applicant tracking systems and stand out from the crowd.
"You are convincing them to give you $100,000 in salary plus benefits. If you're not looking at it as that sort of sales equation then that's part of the reason why you're failing."
— Mike Tomasello Reframing job searching as a sales and marketing process to help job seekers understand the stakes involved.
[0:00] hello welcome and Namaste our special [0:03] guest speaker was called a top career [0:07] thought Leader by original shark Kevin [0:11] Harrington from TV Shark [0:13] Tank despite being a strong [0:17] introvert falling asleep during first [0:20] ever interview and being the first [0:24] generation in his family to graduate [0:26] from [0:27] college he has gone [0:30] onto the leading both a startup and [0:33] Fortune 100 team across multiple [0:37] countries with 1 billion in his [0:40] strategical [0:41] responsibilities he has helped tens of [0:44] thousands of job Seeker to find better [0:46] job from fresh college [0:50] graduates to all the way up to the Sea [0:53] suet [0:55] Executives he has been a paid speaker at [0:59] University around the world in theing [1:02] University of Maryland berdu and IIT [1:07] India [1:09] Delhi and he has spent 24 years [1:13] interviewing thousands of successful [1:16] senior executive to research what does [1:20] it take to work in Career Success [1:25] including job [1:27] search he's the CEO of Korean here [1:30] success and secret I am excited to have [1:34] Mike Thomas Alo to this podcast Mike [1:38] welcome thank you so much I'm super [1:40] excited to be [1:43] here Mike let's jump into this why did [1:47] you start Career Success secret yeah I [1:52] had gotten to app pointed my career [1:54] where I had a lot of success IID worked [1:58] in a variety of different departments [2:00] I had been promoted numerous times I had [2:03] led large teams internationally and I [2:06] had gotten to a point in my career where [2:08] I felt I had accomplished the goal that [2:10] I wanted to accomplish and I have always [2:13] been really motivated by simply making [2:16] the largest difference in the world that [2:18] I possibly could and so when I took a [2:21] step back and I said where can I really [2:23] make a different then what am I good at [2:26] and what am I where do I have knowledge [2:28] and expertise where I I don't think [2:31] enough people have it I kept coming back [2:33] to Career Success and job seice success [2:36] that's awesome and then I know I've [2:39] changed five seven jobs in my career I [2:42] know what's the difference that make to [2:45] figuring out everything by yourself or [2:48] having somebody on your side so Mike how [2:52] do you help your client step up their [2:55] game what they could not do themselves [2:59] yeah so most people deep down are [3:01] capable of doing a lot of these things [3:04] on their own however there is a specific [3:07] area of expertise that I have uh a [3:10] tremendous amount of experience in that [3:12] the average person doesn't so one I have [3:17] uh I've been a both an external [3:19] recruiter as well as an internal [3:22] recruiter so I've been Head Hunter and [3:24] worked for multiple clients and and had [3:28] to go out and seek people and then I've [3:30] also done internal recruiting at my [3:33] particular company now some coaches and [3:38] some job search teachers have that [3:41] expertise but what makes me different is [3:43] I've actually been promoted in my career [3:45] I've actually LED large teams in my [3:47] career and so I look at things from a [3:51] recruiter perspective I look at things [3:53] from a hiring manager perspective which [3:56] believe it or not are are different and [3:59] then last last but not least I look at [4:01] things from a sales and marketing [4:03] perspective where I have a tremendous [4:05] amount of expertise and so I have gone [4:08] out and tested what worked what doesn't [4:12] work thousands and thousands of times [4:14] and I've figured out that M shifts in [4:16] language M shifts in technique can have [4:20] a tremendous impact so I take an [4:22] engineering approach to [4:26] grappling a problem and figuring out how [4:28] we can re-engineer it to make ourselves [4:31] more successful yeah and I have attended [4:34] if you don't know if you're listening to [4:36] this podcast and if you don't know this [4:39] tune into one of the space which Mike [4:41] join the Hunt is you will always find [4:45] Mike might there but in the spaces one [4:48] of the thing that I have heard is how [4:51] you can uplift your resume how to [4:54] basically talk about what you have done [4:57] and how you can help the company what [5:00] and then adding some numbers around it [5:02] so I wanted to ask your tips around how [5:06] can somebody off lip their resume by [5:10] adding or emphasizing the project that [5:13] they have done yeah I I have tons of [5:16] tips so you can always tell me if I'm [5:18] not giving you enough or if I'm giving [5:20] you too much but one tip that is really [5:23] unconventional that you almost never [5:25] hear but that you need to hear is that [5:29] step one is always Clarity step one is [5:32] always Clarity so what do I mean by [5:36] that one of the biggest misconceptions [5:39] about a resume or a CV is that it is [5:43] simply a legal history of everything [5:46] that you've ever done in your career [5:49] that used to be true 20 years ago and [5:52] some people are still teaching old stuff [5:54] from 20 years ago but that's not really [5:57] true today today you're resume or your [6:00] CV is a marketing [6:02] document which is specifically designed [6:06] to get you one type of position one type [6:09] of position and [6:12] so if you don't know what your next step [6:16] is then your resume is not going to [6:19] resonate with the person that you're [6:21] trying to reach you need to be clear on [6:24] what is that ideal next job title for [6:26] you what is that ideal next industry or [6:30] type of company for you and then you're [6:32] going to rewrite now some of a lot of [6:36] the structure might stay the same a lot [6:39] of uh the the positions obviously are [6:42] aren't going to be too different but the [6:44] bullet point and what type of content [6:47] that you emphasize is going to be [6:49] different depending on what your next [6:52] goal is and that actually similar advice [6:55] that I would give for anything in your [6:57] career so if you're feeling in in your [7:00] career or you're feeling unhappy in your [7:02] career it's probably because you've lost [7:05] sight or you haven't made a decision [7:07] around what is your next de what is that [7:10] next thing that you want going back to [7:13] some other resume tips so we want to [7:16] tell a story we want to tell a narrative [7:19] about why you're a great fit for the [7:21] next position so the second resume tip I [7:24] would give you is have you analyzed [7:27] multiple job description [7:30] for that ideal next job title in [7:33] Industry that you want because different [7:38] even if they have the same exact job [7:40] title different positions are looking [7:42] for slightly different things they might [7:45] overlap in terms of their job duties but [7:48] when you really analyze job description [7:51] after job description you're going to [7:53] see that there are Trends in terms of [7:56] what are three to five job duties or [7:58] respons abilities that are more [8:01] important for the type of hiring manager [8:04] that you're trying to read and this will [8:06] also VAR by culture and some and and [8:10] some other things that you might be [8:12] looking for in an [8:14] employer so when you reward all of that [8:19] it it really has a tremendous impact in [8:21] terms of whether or not people think oh [8:24] like I have a really good feeling about [8:25] him I have a really good feeling about [8:27] her so those are some of the ones that [8:30] jump out at me because if you don't do [8:33] those from the beginning chances are [8:36] your resume is just going to look like a [8:38] random RIS list of things that you've [8:40] done in your life I really love this [8:42] advice where you started with the [8:44] clarity and then instead of making your [8:47] resume like an inventory of different [8:50] thing that you have done the skills that [8:52] you have acquired or education you're [8:56] making it targeted to the job that you [8:58] are applying for [9:00] and you said specifically that I have [9:03] these many things and this is why I am a [9:06] good fit for this specific job so I love [9:09] how you translated everything and not [9:12] making it oh this is all I have take it [9:16] right versus you actually analyzing the [9:19] requirement job positions and then [9:21] presenting yourself as one of the strong [9:24] candidate you're doing the job for them [9:26] to match what you have what verus what [9:30] they want excellent summary add on that [9:33] or give a brief example on that so there [9:36] was a time in my career when I was a [9:39] sales [9:40] professional and I actually wanted to [9:43] switch into marketing and even though I [9:46] didn't go out and get a marketing [9:48] position immediately I didn't go out and [9:50] work on a bunch of marketing project I [9:53] went back through my resume line by line [9:56] and said is a marketing manager going to [9:59] care about that bullet point and if they [10:03] don't care about that bullet point for [10:05] the next position that you want then I [10:08] would actually consider deleting it or I [10:10] would consider rewriting it and [10:14] so the other part is language or [10:17] lingo it varies so just like the wording [10:21] would be different for someone who [10:23] speaking Mandarin Chinese versus [10:27] pantones the language will vary from [10:30] company to company and so if you're [10:32] using acronyms or you're using words [10:36] that don't really resonate with that [10:38] person and you're not witching them and [10:40] learning about what the proper language [10:43] is for that next position then there's [10:45] going to be that disconnect there I will [10:48] add a topic slightly sensitive topic to [10:50] some [10:51] people what about these uh [10:54] software that scan your resum in before [10:59] the hiring manager sees the match and [11:02] then quality of the resume these [11:04] software um have a potential to not even [11:08] allow you to go to the next level right [11:11] so is there any tip where we can be very [11:14] intentional about the resume and the the [11:17] content that is specific to the job and [11:20] to still take care of the basic [11:22] Foundation of these scanner softwares [11:25] yeah so I so a couple out of thebox [11:28] solution to that so so first of all it [11:32] if you're trying to skip a step that is [11:35] part of the reason why that is part of [11:38] the reason why your resume is not [11:39] getting seen so if so I told you to look [11:43] at multiple job descriptions analyze [11:47] them see what they all have in common [11:49] some people try to skip that dep and [11:51] they'll be like Oh I'm only going to do [11:52] one of those that's part of the reason [11:55] why you're not necessarily getting seen [11:58] and getting past that software that you [12:00] were talking about is one well they [12:02] might be searching for a term that [12:04] wasn't actually in the job description [12:06] to begin [12:07] with but by analyzing multiple job [12:10] descriptions you increase the chances [12:13] that you truly understand what keywords [12:16] are most important to [12:18] them the the other piece of advice that [12:21] I would give you and the clarity piece [12:24] also goes directly hand inand with that [12:26] so here's the out of thebox thing [12:30] if you updating your [12:32] resume every single time you're applying [12:35] for something new that can take a lot of [12:39] time and speed does matter in the job [12:42] search speed does matter so you can if [12:46] you spend four or five hours redoing [12:49] your resume every single time and 10 [12:52] other people apply that are equally good [12:55] as you like you might not get the [12:56] interview simply because you took too [12:58] long [12:59] so here's my solution and it's going to [13:02] blow it's going to blow some of your [13:04] mind because it so simple but so few [13:07] people do it is stop applying [13:11] online and track down the name of the [13:15] hiring manager and apply to the hiring [13:17] manager [13:19] directly find their email preferably [13:22] find their email or find their DM [13:25] although email works better and you're [13:28] going to email your resume to them [13:30] directly and you're going to stay in an [13:32] email or you're going to stay in a DM [13:35] two or three sentences about why you're [13:37] a great fit for the position you get [13:39] around getting stuck in a database you [13:43] look different because you're not one of [13:46] the 200 or 2,000 other people that are [13:50] getting stuck in a database and you're [13:53] getting seen by the human being that has [13:55] the most power to make the decision so [13:57] that would be my recommend to you but [14:00] please let me know if you disagree or or [14:03] there's other things you'd like to know [14:05] about that no I personally agree and as [14:07] a hiring manager I want to find good [14:10] candidate [14:12] and I have personally have spoke always [14:16] speak to my recruiter internal so we [14:18] have internal Recruiters in Advent [14:20] Health who help hiring managers find the [14:23] candidate so I always tell them that do [14:28] not just filter anybody because they [14:31] don't have um XYZ I'm still interested [14:35] in just looking at the resume I'm I'm [14:38] happy to put some extra effort because [14:41] most of the time I'm looking for a [14:43] candidate who will be there for two [14:44] years 5 years 10 years and I'm okay to [14:47] spend some time with them but in but so [14:51] if a candidate send me a personalized [14:53] email matching what I'm looking for and [14:57] the mat and helping me [14:59] that these are things that they have [15:01] done that are relevant to my job I would [15:04] appreciate it actually yeah so that [15:06] technique would work on you definitely [15:08] will work um and [15:10] sometime because I'm not only looking [15:13] for technology I'm looking for a human [15:15] being who will be part of the team I [15:17] take a lot of extra time to find the [15:20] right candidate who is the best team fit [15:23] not the best uh technical person or a [15:25] skill person so yeah this will be very [15:29] helpful for me so we talk about the [15:31] first step preparing the resume now [15:33] we're talking about [15:35] application and uh finding the right um [15:39] of quick ways so we talk about finding [15:43] the femals finding the hiring managers [15:45] and then re approaching them through [15:48] email or DM and I think some people will [15:52] have a lot of hesitations in doing [15:56] something like that how can we send a DM [15:59] won't even respond to us XYZ so I want [16:03] to take another 30 second just to give [16:06] them confidence that it is okay it is [16:09] still able you can still do it and there [16:12] are techniques to do [16:15] it for example one of the one of the [16:18] thing that I tell if you want to DM [16:22] somebody first don't send hi send a [16:26] proper message and then second if they [16:29] posting something online let's say in [16:32] LinkedIn interact with that [16:35] first and once you interact share [16:39] comment those are the three things that [16:40] you could do with somebody else post [16:43] they see you and then when you send a DM [16:48] with proper [16:49] introduction there's a high possibility [16:52] that they will respond so Mike what you [16:55] going to what's your your take on that I [16:57] know you can give you much better advice [16:59] than me but I just wanted to open up [17:01] with some thoughts and then I wanted to [17:03] hand over Mike to you yeah let me let me [17:06] respond to your suggestion first and [17:09] then Circle back and and talk about [17:11] giving people more confidence in terms [17:13] of this approach and then let me know if [17:15] I missed anything so I think your [17:17] suggestion is [17:20] fantastic absolutely if this person is [17:23] posting on LinkedIn or and it doesn't [17:26] have to be LinkedIn like if for maybe [17:28] they don't post LinkedIn and maybe they [17:30] post on Twitter if they post on another [17:33] social media site and their posts are [17:36] public interacting with them is a [17:39] fantastic way for them to start to get [17:41] your name which by the way is part of [17:44] the reason why I recommend the email [17:46] approach when you are applying in a [17:50] different method than the way that [17:52] everyone else is applying that's when [17:55] you stand out when they see your name [17:58] multiple times [17:59] they start to remember your name and be [18:02] like huh I keep being her name there [18:04] must be a reason for that like maybe I [18:06] should check out her resume so these [18:10] additional touch point in [18:12] marketing a and sales we say the more [18:15] touch point that you have with someone [18:18] the more likely that they are to [18:20] actually schedule a meeting with you the [18:22] more touch point you have with someone [18:24] the more likely they are to buy from you [18:27] and you might not like thinking about [18:29] job search as sales or marketing but it [18:33] really is you are convincing them give [18:37] you $100,000 in salary plus benefit you [18:41] are convincing them to give you $200,000 [18:44] in salary plus benefits so if you're not [18:48] looking at it as that sort of sales [18:51] equation then that's part of the reason [18:53] why you're failing so I love I I I love [18:57] your technique of interacting with their [18:59] posts and doing that multiple times [19:02] especially if you want to develop a [19:04] long-term relationship with them but [19:06] shortterm works as well so so let's [19:09] switch back to the the original thing is [19:12] that a lot of people are going to hear [19:13] reaching out to a hiring manager and not [19:16] necessarily wanting to do it or being [19:18] afraid to do it or not feeling confident [19:20] in doing it and I would say how long [19:24] have you been job searching have you [19:25] been job searching for three months two [19:28] months and does that feel painful to you [19:31] CU for most people that feels painful [19:34] and if you continue to get the same [19:37] result that you're currently getting [19:40] which most people are unhappy with the [19:42] result they're getting well what if your [19:45] lack of result continues for another 3 [19:47] months another 6 months a year there's [19:51] some people out of work for a year and [19:54] so I would say you can't afford not to [19:57] try this [19:59] if you truly want to change your life [20:02] cuz if you want to get better result [20:04] than what you're getting now you have to [20:06] do something significantly different [20:08] than what you're doing now because [20:10] that's why you're not getting results [20:12] nothing bad is going to happen if you [20:15] reach out to a hiring manager worst case [20:18] they don't [20:20] responds I have had people I have had [20:22] people do this thousands and thousands [20:25] of times I'm not exaggerating on that [20:27] I've had people do this thousands and [20:29] thousands of times I think we have had [20:31] one hiring manager one so less than half [20:36] a like less than a tenth of a percent [20:39] chance that someone is going to respond [20:42] and be mad at you and if that happens [20:46] Let's Pretend the worst case does happen [20:49] that's probably a sign they weren't [20:51] going to consider your application to [20:53] begin with and so who [20:56] cares so a lot of times we think we're [20:59] avoiding rejection by not reaching out [21:01] to people but we're actually increasing [21:04] the amount of rejection because we're [21:06] not giving people an opportunity to read [21:08] an email from us or have a conversation [21:12] with us through networking or whatever [21:14] so by just applying online you're [21:17] actually increasing your rejection if [21:20] you're not doing anything else and I [21:22] will end this topic by sharing one story [21:25] from a friend he has worked with me at [21:28] some point and he's from that the same [21:31] domain as the company work [21:34] day so at some point he decided to get [21:38] into work there and he spent I think [21:41] three four months he had a job so he was [21:44] not in [21:45] rush but he went to LinkedIn and he [21:48] started looking for everybody who work [21:50] at work day workday is the company and [21:54] then he found couple of people including [21:56] the hiring manager [21:59] just by searching and in LinkedIn for [22:02] the company workday and then trying to [22:04] make sense and then believe it or not he [22:08] was able to find the right content he [22:12] was able to use them as a reference uh [22:15] referral apply to the company and then [22:17] got a job and worked it that's fantastic [22:21] I love that realistic that inspires me [22:23] to share like a couple more quick things [22:25] and I promise you that will be quick but [22:28] there important take all the time so [22:32] people that apply directly to the hiring [22:35] manager is long the email or the DM is [22:38] fairly well written the people that I I [22:42] know that are using this technique are [22:44] getting somewhere between a 20 to a 40% [22:47] success rate now you might be like oh 20 [22:50] to 40% success rate that feels really [22:53] low but if you analyze what the average [22:57] job Searcher is is getting by just [22:59] applying online if you're just applying [23:02] online and nothing else not getting [23:04] referred in not doing networking stuff [23:07] like that the average success rate of [23:10] someone right now is less than 1% or the [23:13] number of applications so like 200 one [23:17] you apply for 100 jobs you are the [23:20] average job Searcher is getting less [23:22] than one interview out of a 100 [23:25] applications So 20% [23:30] you are increasing your result by at [23:33] least 20 times by doing something like [23:36] that we're talking about so I I love [23:39] your story I have countless examples of [23:43] people that have done this with complete [23:45] strangers by the way this is the one [23:48] technique that worked really well with [23:50] complete strangers as long as they're [23:52] the hiring manager I have emailed vice [23:56] presidents and the vice president [23:58] president boarded my application to the [24:01] hiring manager and that and I didn't [24:04] know the vice president I just thought [24:06] they might be responsible in the change [24:09] and the hiring managers I had to [24:11] interview you because the vice president [24:13] ported you my email I have emailed [24:16] hiring managers my clients had emailed [24:18] hiring managers and we guessed the wrong [24:21] person and they responded anyway and [24:25] said hey that doesn't report to me but I [24:28] for it to the hiring manager for you now [24:32] the hiring manager this person must be [24:34] good cuz this person fored it to me y [24:37] I've had situations where me or my [24:41] clients have emailed someone we guessed [24:43] the wrong person and they said that [24:46] position doesn't report to me but [24:49] there's this hidden job that I haven't [24:52] even posted yet that might be a good fit [24:55] for you would you be [24:56] interested so [24:59] if you have a little bit of bad luck you [25:01] can have tremendous amount of success by [25:03] doing this this is incredible examples [25:06] incredible discussions right it's [25:08] becoming it we are turning this into a [25:10] master class so anybody who's [25:14] watching so let's let's shift the shift [25:18] it to [25:20] referrals and that's where we will talk [25:22] about referals [25:25] networking so much so We Touch referral [25:30] in some of the way by reaching out to [25:32] hiring managers or building the contact [25:34] but there's a lot you can do just [25:37] tapping into your existing Network or [25:40] existing sources so let's first talk [25:43] about referral why referrals are so [25:46] important what it does in your job [25:49] applications so we will start with that [25:52] and then we'll uh tap into how to get [25:55] more referrals and find more referrals [25:59] yeah so the first thing that comes to [26:00] mind and then feel free to ask me some [26:03] followup questions to to make sure that [26:06] I I cover what you want to cover so the [26:08] reason why referrals are so important is [26:11] in the united in North America so United [26:14] States and Canada the average job in [26:17] North America receives a minimum of 300 [26:21] applications per position [26:24] 300 that the average company so that can [26:29] be a smaller company that you have not [26:32] necessarily ever heard of before if you [26:35] want to apply for the large well-known [26:38] company in your area or in your country [26:43] it doesn't have to be a it doesn't have [26:45] to be a Disney it doesn't have to be a [26:47] Google or a Microsoft or whatever but it [26:50] could be if you're applying to those [26:53] super desirable companies in your area [26:56] or your industry [26:59] chances are the average job is receiving [27:02] 3,000 or more applications for those [27:05] roles so that goes back to that job [27:08] search MTH percentages that I was [27:10] talking about earlier [27:14] like the only way to get around that is [27:17] if you're doing stuff that's different [27:20] so if you're just going in a database no [27:23] matter how amazing your resume is it Fe [27:27] it's very likely that they are going to [27:30] spend a significant amount of time on [27:32] every single resume in the database [27:35] 3,000 the lot or 200 the [27:38] lot by being referred in you jump to a [27:43] shorter list of people that are going to [27:45] be considered no matter what they're [27:48] going to spend more time on your resume [27:51] because you were referred in so so [27:54] that's the reason that's the rationale [27:57] and then [27:59] uh where would you like me to go from [28:00] here because referrals is a really big [28:02] topic um one thing that I wanted to add [28:05] here is referral does not mean that you [28:08] will get the job referral means you will [28:12] guaranteed an interview not guaranteed [28:14] but higher chance of getting a a [28:17] interview you still have to perform and [28:20] do all the due diligence and whatever is [28:22] needed but what we're talking here is [28:24] referral to secure interview and then [28:28] you perform there yeah we can go to any [28:31] direction if I have to suggest I will [28:33] suggest how to find referals yeah so [28:36] before we jump to how to find referrals [28:38] let's talk about let's talk about what a [28:40] good referral looks like CU I think this [28:43] is where a lot of people get duck so a [28:46] lot of people think a lot of people [28:48] think oh referral let me just find a [28:51] random person that works at the [28:53] company and they'll forward my resume or [28:57] they'll Mark me as an employee referral [28:59] and I've done my job and I'm going to [29:01] get an [29:02] interview that is better than doing [29:05] nothing else but those aren't really [29:08] effective those aren't really effective [29:11] referrals so one ideally we want to be [29:14] referred in by someone that has [29:18] influence over the hiring [29:20] manager so if it's someone who's a [29:23] complete stranger to the hiring manager [29:26] they're going to have less influence [29:27] over over and so in situations like that [29:31] especially if your Network's a little [29:32] bit smaller or you're living in a new [29:34] city you might start out with someone [29:37] that works in finance but you want to [29:40] work in software development or software [29:43] engineering you might actually want to [29:45] get that person to introduce you to [29:48] someone that worked more closely with [29:50] the software engineering [29:52] team then just have them apply for [29:56] you because if that person doesn't work [30:01] anywhere close to the department their [30:03] referrals is going to have very little [30:06] influence over the [30:08] decision because especially at a larger [30:10] company like a Google [30:12] Disney doesn't have to be a a name brand [30:15] like that it can just be a really big [30:18] company some of them get hundreds of [30:22] referrals some of them get hundreds of [30:24] referrals so I was talking to a friend [30:27] of mine over at Google and he's hey in [30:29] the past year I've referred in 30 [30:33] different people only two of them got [30:37] interviews and I said what's the [30:39] difference between the two that got [30:41] interviews and the rest of them and he [30:44] said to me the difference was I actually [30:48] knew the people I I actually knew the [30:51] two people that got interviewed much [30:54] better like I had a conversation with [30:56] them I had a good feel about them and so [31:00] that led to them that led to the per [31:04] person referring people in to actually [31:07] write a nice note to the Hur manager to [31:10] write a nice note to the [31:12] recruiter you're just having a random [31:14] stranger that you've never talked to on [31:16] the phone it going to Bear a lot less [31:20] weight when so many other people are [31:21] doing it so normally the question I get [31:24] asked at this point is oh that sounds [31:26] like a lot of work [31:28] and I don't know if I want to do it cuz [31:30] but here's the cool thing it's not a [31:33] heck of a lot of work you're just adding [31:36] one additional step and it's a fairly [31:39] quick step so instead of asking people [31:42] to just refer hey can you refer me can [31:45] you forward my [31:46] resume not like a very relationship [31:49] building [31:51] App instead say hey I'd love to get your [31:56] advice can we jump on the phone for 20 [32:01] minute you can build a really strong [32:05] relationship with someone sometimes not [32:07] all the time in 20 minutes and then if [32:10] they enjoy the conversation if they [32:12] enjoy meeting you if they think you're [32:15] like if they can tell your [32:17] smart then they might be then they're [32:20] much more likely to be able to spend a [32:22] note to the hiring manager or the [32:24] recruiter talking about Hey spoke to [32:27] this guy he asked really smart question [32:30] I think you should interview [32:33] him notice I didn't say anything about I [32:36] just met this guy notice I didn't say [32:38] anything about so I have people that [32:41] have done this thousands and thousands [32:44] of times and got high quality referrals [32:47] with someone that they only spoke to for [32:49] 20 [32:51] minutes so that would be my overall [32:55] explanation of what's a better referral [32:58] and that's my brief version of how you [33:01] might go about getting [33:02] one now let's say let's think [33:06] about the people you already know for [33:10] some time and you may [33:13] not know or realize that they could be [33:17] one of the greater referrals and the two [33:20] ways it work is the people you know and [33:24] then the people they know yeah [33:28] and this is where we will go into many [33:31] directions but I wanted to start by [33:34] sharing um couple of example from my [33:37] personal [33:38] life when I I got interviewed and hired [33:43] by fifth largest company in India it's [33:45] called butne computer so at that time it [33:49] was the fifth largest [33:51] company and the way I was able to get in [33:55] because I built a relation ship with [33:58] someone in the company that I was [34:01] working prior so this other person was [34:05] there we worked on two projects together [34:08] we built a relationship and when he [34:10] joined this [34:12] company he has no hesitation referring [34:15] me plus advocating for me to entire [34:19] company like hiring manager as well as [34:22] the interview panel so I got a very good [34:25] entry there right because before I went [34:28] in I already have uh some kind of [34:31] perception made for me I love it and [34:34] then twice I had somebody worked with me [34:38] in the first company when I was hired in [34:40] Putney computers about 6 month later [34:43] this person shown interest in joining [34:46] with me so I referred him and then [34:50] probably four years later when I joined [34:52] Advent Health then I asked him do you [34:55] want to come and I refer him and and the [34:58] very first line was when I was referring [35:01] to I was only there for 3 months I built [35:05] some reputation within three month and I [35:07] said this person has worked with me in [35:09] two companies I vouch for him yeah he's [35:13] perfect for this job and he was in so we [35:16] worked in three companies [35:18] together my point with that is the [35:21] people who you work with in your [35:24] full-time [35:25] job they can [35:28] then come back and refer you at [35:31] different situations so one of my value [35:35] is I don't lose connection with anybody [35:37] who I work with or are connected so that [35:40] would be so let's start from there those [35:43] are really good [35:44] referrals the people who you have worked [35:47] with and then who they know because [35:51] there is higher chances that they may [35:53] not be in Amazon but they may know two [35:56] other people who are in Amazon Amazon [35:58] and these people can vouch to them and [36:01] introduce you so that you get really [36:04] quality referral in Amazon even though [36:07] you don't know directly I love the fact [36:09] that you brought that up it it's such a [36:11] fantastic and and important conversation [36:14] to be having the people that know and [36:17] trust you are going to be the people [36:20] that have the most potential to give you [36:22] the most powerful [36:24] Ral now sometimes people are like oh I'm [36:27] early in my career or oh I I worked at a [36:30] place and it ended badly or whatever so [36:34] a couple things that I would say to [36:35] those people [36:37] one you don't have to have a great [36:40] relationship with everyone to have an [36:42] effective Network or building if that if [36:45] that did not work not everybody that [36:48] refers you has to be an old [36:51] boss your co-workers that have the same [36:55] exact job title as you or similar job [36:57] sub titles as you that are at the same [36:59] level as you they have the power to give [37:02] you just as great referrals and we live [37:06] in a world where it's very rare that [37:08] someone's going to stay I I think it's [37:10] near impossible to stay at the same [37:12] company your entire career and so your [37:15] ex co-workers brainstorm the people that [37:18] you used to work with because chances [37:22] are your old co-workers probably work at [37:24] least 15 to 20 different companies [37:28] even if your career's been short so [37:31] that's what one thing I would say to [37:33] people the other thing I would say to [37:35] people that are earlier in your career [37:38] is don't discount the [37:40] people that know and trust you in a [37:43] nonwork [37:45] capacity so your relatives even if they [37:49] don't work in your Fields you never know [37:53] who your relatives that don't work in [37:55] your field might know so I always give [37:58] the example of my sister who my sister [38:01] doesn't work in Tech my sister doesn't [38:04] work my sister's actually a massage [38:07] therapist but she's a massage therapist [38:11] in San [38:13] Francisco and her clients work [38:16] intact her friends work [38:19] intact her husband works [38:22] intact she knows she might not even [38:26] realize it but I know because I stalk [38:29] her connections on LinkedIn she knows [38:32] vice [38:33] presidents at at influential companies [38:37] all across the [38:39] country and if I discounted my or I said [38:44] hey I'm not so talking to the people [38:47] that you do know and saying hey I'm [38:50] looking to meet people in Te who do you [38:53] know that I can get them advice from I'm [38:56] looking to meet people that work in [38:59] software [39:00] engineering so when you start having [39:04] those conversations with people in terms [39:06] of who do you want to meet what do you [39:07] want to learn more about you'll be [39:10] amazed especially if you're connecting [39:13] with them on [39:14] LinkedIn then you can search through [39:16] their connections because you might be [39:18] able to figure out who they know faster [39:20] than they [39:21] can your ability to expand your network [39:24] is unlimited and we haven't even talked [39:26] about if you have a degree then you you [39:28] have [39:30] univ military service than anyone that's [39:34] ever been in the same military as your [39:38] country those people are part of your [39:40] network so there's so many different [39:41] things we can talk about it's crazy yeah [39:44] Mike one of the thing that you shared [39:46] with me some time ago is for a freshers [39:50] or even three years of experience that [39:53] they may not have a lot of online [39:55] contexts but they have have a treasure [39:59] that they can open like their University [40:02] and local so I wanted to ask you to [40:05] share that how somebody can take all the [40:10] resources from their University or their [40:12] local local places yes so a couple [40:16] different things on that so one you need [40:18] to be un LinkedIn even if you don't [40:20] think you need to be on LinkedIn you [40:22] need to be on LinkedIn because a lot of [40:25] times LinkedIn database of your [40:27] University alumni or whatever A lot of [40:31] times their D linkedin's database is [40:33] better than the University's alumni [40:35] database itself so if you're lucky [40:38] enough to have a university that has a [40:40] really strong Alumni Center or database [40:43] or record by all means go and ask them [40:46] or look for that or even pay pay a small [40:49] fee for that if they charge but so much [40:52] is going to be available to you on [40:54] LinkedIn cheers what here's secret about [40:58] LinkedIn that almost nobody talks about [41:01] like even a lot of recruiters don't [41:03] realize this you do not have access to [41:07] every single person that then LinkedIn [41:10] database here's how you get access to as [41:14] many people as possible LinkedIn only [41:17] shows you people within [41:21] 3° of of you so first degree of you [41:25] someone you already know second degree [41:26] someone that knows someone and then [41:29] third degree someone that knows someone [41:31] whatever now so if you're not connecting [41:35] to everyone that you know that [41:38] additional University alumni might not [41:40] be showing you so connect to everybody [41:42] you know I would emphasize that over [41:45] connecting with new [41:47] people second thing and this is the [41:49] other thing that almost no one's talking [41:52] about I don't think anyone's talking [41:53] about this I only hear myself talk about [41:55] this you want to join you want to max [41:59] out the number of LinkedIn group that [42:01] you're a member of not because I want [42:04] you to read the post not because I want [42:06] you to post stuff in there simply [42:09] because that's the exception to the [42:12] third degree rule on LinkedIn if they [42:15] are in the same group as you then they [42:18] will show up in your people search [42:20] result so join multiple groups from your [42:24] University particularly the large ones [42:28] join multiple groups for your University [42:31] join multiple groups for your industry [42:33] join multiple groups for your field so [42:37] your department software engineering [42:38] software development technical product [42:41] management so doing all of that will [42:44] maximize the number of University alumni [42:47] that show up and that part so so those [42:50] would be like the big super secret [42:53] things and tell me what I missed where [42:56] what do you want to talk about for the [42:57] rest of our call I think you said one [43:00] more thing is counselor you can they can [43:02] reach out to the counselor in the [43:04] University that they went to they [43:07] typically know people who have been a [43:10] student and where they're working and [43:11] they can help you connect yeah thank you [43:14] so much for saying that because that's a [43:15] pretty big piece so one it even if you [43:19] have graduated but you're within one or [43:21] two years of graduation there's a strong [43:24] chance that your University's Career [43:26] Center it might be called something [43:28] slightly different but the most of them [43:31] are called something related to Career [43:32] Center reach out and talk to a human [43:36] being and let them know uh what types of [43:39] alumni that you're looking for and they [43:42] can help you figure that out and if they [43:44] like you enough they might even make [43:46] introduction for you so that's one route [43:49] the other route and you can do this as a [43:51] student as a fresher as well but alumni [43:55] of all ages can do this you can also [43:57] reach out to the Alumni Center or the [44:00] Alumni Association of the university and [44:03] you can ask the same [44:05] question and some of them know vice [44:08] president and directors and whatever [44:10] that they might be willing to introduce [44:12] you to and then last but not least this [44:16] is going to particularly for people that [44:18] are recent graduate because your [44:21] professors are a gold mine and almost [44:25] nobody ask [44:27] professors for help now if you never [44:31] spoke to your professor during school [44:33] it's going to be a little bit harder but [44:37] you could reach out to your professor [44:39] I've had I've reached out to my [44:41] professor the last week of school and [44:43] I've asked them for help would have been [44:46] better if I did it earlier but I still [44:49] got a lot of benefit out of it so send a [44:53] message to your favorite Professor [44:55] particularly in your field and say hey I [44:58] really enjoyed your I really enjoyed XYZ [45:01] class I particularly like what I learned [45:04] about ab and I'd love to have a brief [45:07] conversation with you and get advice [45:09] about my [45:11] career and then once you get in that [45:13] conversation with them and it again [45:16] could be in 20 minutes or less could be [45:18] in 10 minutes or less and they're like [45:20] ah that dud really liked my advice that [45:23] makes me feel good and then you can say [45:26] hey I want to meet get advice from more [45:29] people that work in the in software [45:31] engineering I want to get more advice [45:33] from people that work in technical [45:35] product management do you know anybody [45:38] and then the professor is going to [45:40] introduce you to their best students who [45:44] are senior managers directors and vice [45:47] president I I will try to translate one [45:50] of the hindy saying into English but [45:53] saying is something like this you don't [45:56] dig a well when there is f you start [46:01] digging it way before so when you're in [46:04] college like you said build a LinkedIn [46:08] profile and start connecting with people [46:10] and then U then have the relationship [46:14] with so many people so that when you [46:17] really need the help you can reach out [46:20] to many of yeah that reminds me I I very [46:23] rarely talk about this the first book I [46:26] ever read about networking I think I was [46:29] 18 or 20 years old is called dig your [46:32] well before you're [46:34] thirsty B your before your thirsty by [46:37] Harvey McCay it about a guy who didn't [46:41] even he I I think he barely graduated [46:43] from high school he didn't go to college [46:46] and he worked his way up to vice [46:49] president and eventually CEO of his own [46:52] company so if you're nervous about [46:55] networking you're having and you're like [46:58] ah I don't know if this will work for me [47:00] get that book because it'll be like wow [47:04] I can't afford not to network dig your [47:07] well before you're thirsty by Harvey [47:11] McKay We'll add it to show description [47:14] so let's take this to the Finish Line [47:18] before we leave this [47:21] topic I wanted to quickly cover so we [47:25] the candidate does XYZ and now they have [47:29] the interview and obviously we can talk [47:32] about hundred different things about how [47:35] to do well in the interview so we won't [47:38] cover everything but there's one [47:40] question that comes all the time and [47:43] that's super critical that also goes [47:45] with your [47:46] Clarity is tell me about yourself right [47:50] that question will come up and that set [47:53] sometime it set the tone for rest of the [47:55] interview so I want wanted to touch that [47:58] before we move forward yeah so with [48:00] anything with an interview we want to [48:02] try to create a wow experience even if [48:06] you don't think it's an important [48:08] question however you start the interview [48:11] is important and can be the difference [48:13] between you getting the job or not so I [48:16] want to wow them with why they should [48:18] hire me I want you to wow them with why [48:22] they should hire [48:23] you as soon as they ask that question or [48:27] the first question that comes out of [48:28] their mouth so a couple tips that will [48:31] help you with the tell me about yourself [48:34] answer one I want you to put in [48:36] parentheses or write it at the top of [48:39] your [48:40] notes in relation to the specific job [48:44] title and job and company that I'm [48:47] interviewing [48:49] for so it's going to be like this it not [48:52] tell me about yourself that they really [48:54] want to know it tell me about yourself [48:57] in relation to the specific job title [49:01] and specific company that you're [49:02] interviewing for your answer and the [49:06] quality of your answer will change [49:08] dramatically if you change the question [49:10] to that in your head so that's one piece [49:14] so for me that's that's a one minute [49:17] summary or a 45 second summary in terms [49:21] of what job title am I applying [49:24] for why am I a great fit for it [49:27] hopefully you did that analyzing [49:30] multiple job descriptions and you said [49:33] hey these three to five things seem to [49:35] be most important and I'm good at three [49:38] of these five and so those three that [49:41] you're good at that are most important [49:44] that's what you're going to talk about [49:46] with your tell me about your self [49:48] answerer I have never had one client [49:51] that tried this approach I and again [49:53] I've worked with thousands and thousands [49:55] of people I've never had someone that [49:58] didn't have a lot of interview success [50:00] by taking that approach thank you great [50:04] question awesome so let's take this home [50:08] I wanted to ask last three questions and [50:11] I wanted to start with is there a [50:14] question that I did not ask but you want [50:16] to [50:17] answer I can't think of anything your [50:20] questions have been [50:22] fantastic thank you my compliment is [50:25] there a question for me [50:27] well I probably have 37 different [50:30] questions for you so what what did you [50:33] share today what did you hear today that [50:36] you don't think people talk that you [50:40] don't think people talk enough about [50:43] that is most important I'm curious what [50:46] piece of advice you found most [50:50] valuable personally for me I did not [50:52] know that joining the group LinkedIn [50:54] group will allow me to access more [50:57] people I did not know that the other [51:00] thing which was super crucial for me and [51:03] you told me before couple of months ago [51:07] is to how you can tap into your [51:12] universi and anybody who have a [51:16] conversation with me around this I [51:17] always bring this up I love it let me [51:20] say a quick thing on that um oh a couple [51:24] things regarding University alumni [51:27] I was a smart [51:30] kid actually I'm not even going to say I [51:32] was that smart because there are people [51:34] that are smarter that are definitely [51:36] smarter than me that way better scores [51:39] on entrance exams than me way better [51:41] grades than me so you don't have to be [51:45] traditionally successful at college or [51:48] university to use any of the stuff that [51:50] we're talking about all you need to do [51:53] is have a degree and have a connection [51:54] to the school because the Lum wants to [51:57] bond with you emotionally over that that [52:01] where the relationship is built on I [52:03] fell asleep in my first interview I fell [52:06] asleep in a lot of in a lot of my [52:09] classes there were reasons for it but my [52:12] point was my grades weren't that good [52:15] none of that stops me from reaching out [52:18] to vice president of really high level [52:21] companies at a young age I use the same [52:26] technique that we're talking about to [52:27] meet the CEO of American Airlines I use [52:31] these same techniques that we're talking [52:33] about to meet this uh the Executive Vice [52:36] President of American ex bre the CEO of [52:40] CDW I've met multiple Fortune 1,000 CEOs [52:45] through a lot of the technique that [52:47] we're talking about here and the [52:49] potential for you is [52:51] tremendous 100% And then as you said it [52:54] doesn't have to be a university degree [52:57] it doesn't have to be University but [53:01] sending someone a message that hey you [53:04] and I from the same University that an [53:08] immediate Bond even though you were 2 [53:11] years 5 years apart when you was doing [53:14] that course one thing that I realized in [53:17] last two years I joined ship 3430 [53:20] Captain table build a second brain now [53:23] I'm part of Ben Hardy uh [53:27] program what I found that if you do even [53:31] a one day certification with 50 other [53:34] people you get some kind of bonds that [53:37] allow you to reach out to them and say [53:42] you and I was in the same training and [53:45] you get connected you send frequent [53:49] message it could be once a month once in [53:51] six month and that's how you build the [53:54] relationship but it is so powerful that [53:58] just because you was with someone else [54:00] in the same program or same University [54:02] or same class that give you a leverage [54:06] to reach out and say we have a bond yeah [54:10] and that's a great example because if we [54:12] had more time we could if you and I had [54:15] more time together we could talk about [54:18] 37 different other bonds or Association [54:22] so I love the fact that you brought that [54:24] up I will tell you that universities [54:28] where you actually got a degree not just [54:31] took a couple courses there I will tell [54:34] you that for most people that connection [54:36] is dramatically stronger however if you [54:40] don't have that use what you use what [54:43] you and the same advice that I gave [54:45] about [54:46] professors works with certificate [54:49] programs or whatever nothing stopping [54:52] you from reaching out to the [54:54] administrators of the program or the [54:57] people that have been coaching you [54:59] or or teaching your course to say hey [55:03] I'd love to get advice from people that [55:05] work in software development or whatever [55:07] feeli who do you know that you can [55:09] introduce me to so I I love the thought [55:12] you brought up that [55:13] example Mike it has been a privilege and [55:17] honor to host you whoever is watching [55:21] just see how much information Mike has [55:26] we just talk about 37 other ways to make [55:31] connections 100 different ways to make [55:34] your resume more [55:35] powerful um 10 different ways how you [55:39] can do better in your job interview so I [55:43] highly encourage reaching out to Mike [55:47] and have the discovery session with him [55:50] and see if he is a good fit um or just [55:55] attend one of the Twitter space that he [55:58] has been part of so with that Mike thank [56:01] you so much I wanted to ask you is there [56:04] a what would be your final advice to the [56:09] audience yeah thank you so much for that [56:11] clothing and and that recommendation to [56:14] people I I I don't take that likely the [56:17] best way to best way to get in touch [56:19] with me is simply choose your favorite [56:21] social media platform and follow me on [56:24] that platform which is hopefully going [56:26] to be somewhere in the show notes so if [56:28] that's LinkedIn and Twitter for you [56:31] great if that Instagram and Facebook [56:34] great I do the most up on LinkedIn [56:37] Twitter and and Facebook but I am on [56:41] most of the other platforms my my [56:43] closing advice for you would be the [56:47] following job search is more complicated [56:50] than people think it [56:52] is and if you haven't figured out where [56:56] you can [56:57] improve or if you haven't figured out [57:00] why you're not having more success there [57:03] is a skill Gap there and it's not a [57:06] skill Gap in terms of you being [57:09] qualified to do the job so a lot of [57:11] times people hear skill Gap and they're [57:13] like oh I'm going to take another course [57:15] that's not what I'm saying you have a [57:18] skill Gap in job search knowledge and [57:22] even if you are a recruiter which most [57:24] of you aren't recruiters but even [57:27] recruiters there are recruiters out [57:29] there that are not expert on [57:32] jober they're not there are some [57:34] recruiters out there that have not not [57:37] been able to find a job and they've been [57:40] looking for over 12 months it's because [57:43] you don't [57:45] realize that every part of job search is [57:48] a different skill [57:49] set learning how to write a better [57:52] resume is a skill set if you have not [57:55] taken multiple courses if you have not [57:57] had multiple conversations with resume [58:01] experts you're not as as good at resume [58:04] as you think you are than for your [58:06] LinkedIn profile thing for your [58:08] networking thing for your [58:11] interviewing and if you want to never [58:15] have a problem getting a job for the [58:17] rest of your [58:18] life study job search skill sets and [58:23] you're going to be successful my client [58:26] that learn how to be great networkers [58:28] not average networkers they are not [58:31] struggling to get interviews they are [58:33] not struggling to get hired because they [58:37] mastered job search skills that's what I [58:40] have for you thanks for having me [58:42] today thank you so much Mike this was [58:46] really fun conversation and is a master [58:49] class we did we did it thank you [58:54] [Music]
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