Career Transition and Software Development Success

[0:00] hello welcome and Namaste today my guest
[0:03] is eug I met her at Dallas software
[0:07] development group she was one of my team
[0:10] member in last goor and not just that
[0:14] she was amazing team member and she she
[0:18] played a very crucial role in completing
[0:22] that project in for that team and uh
[0:27] with that I want to hand over Mike to
[0:29] fuchin and she actually led a team this
[0:32] time and her team did amazingly well so
[0:35] with that Eugene please share about
[0:38] yourself your job anything that you want
[0:39] to
[0:40] include oh hello my name is Eugen and
[0:44] sometimes I go by my nickname which is
[0:46] Yun and yeah I met vard during the dstd
[0:49] cohort was like last year and he was my
[0:54] team lead and we definitely went through
[0:57] some struggles during that cohort but I
[0:59] feel like we hold it very well at and
[1:01] then made sure we had a working MVP so
[1:04] that was a pretty good
[1:06] success and through that experience it
[1:09] did help me fill in a lot of gaps that I
[1:12] felt like I was missing because I did
[1:14] not come from a traditional background I
[1:16] don't have the computer science degree I
[1:19] was actually career changing from a
[1:21] project manager into software engineer
[1:24] and that cohort that you led and I was a
[1:27] member of I learned a lot of
[1:30] collaboration skill that I feel like I
[1:31] was missing because that's usually not
[1:34] very well taught either in like a boot
[1:36] camp or when you're selftaught like that
[1:38] skill is very hard to find and to
[1:41] actually like acquire so that was a good
[1:44] experience for me and it was definitely
[1:47] a big reason of why I got hired too
[1:49] because they were very excited that I
[1:52] went out of my way to find this missing
[1:55] experience and to just build it on my
[1:58] own rather than having someone tell me
[2:00] like I need this so I feel like that was
[2:03] a good part of why I got my job and it
[2:06] definitely did teach me a lot of skills
[2:08] I was missing and now I work at NBC
[2:11] Universal I a software engineer and if
[2:14] you want to follow me on my LinkedIn I
[2:16] have LinkedIn I believe is B Das hugen
[2:21] is like my URL and then I have my own
[2:24] personal website which I believe is
[2:25] cloudy bay.com I will add what the link
[2:30] to hyperlink to LinkedIn as well as your
[2:33] portfolio site and talking about
[2:35] portfolio site when you launched that
[2:38] last year it was an amazing hit I think
[2:42] it got a lot of responses and and I
[2:46] loved it oh thank you yeah it definitely
[2:49] was one of my post that went I don't
[2:52] know it was like I've never hit like
[2:54] that type of reach before but for some
[2:56] reason that post just hit so many like
[2:58] views and I had so many many comments
[3:00] and people liked it a lot and I got some
[3:02] really good feedback and I'm not a front
[3:05] end person so to make like a design and
[3:09] UI and making it look pretty was
[3:11] definitely out of my own comfort zone
[3:12] but I also wanted to be me like I wanted
[3:16] to represent me so that's why I picked
[3:18] like a very pink curly uh kind
[3:22] of I was about to say that that actually
[3:25] reflect your personality and knowing you
[3:28] that software group and
[3:30] I knew just by looking at that it looked
[3:33] like you are speaking to us yeah that's
[3:36] what I was trying to go for cuz I've
[3:37] seen a lot of like portfolio size
[3:39] they're very pretty they're very like UI
[3:41] aesthetic but I feel like they lack
[3:44] personality in a way because they all
[3:46] look the same in a way so I wanted mine
[3:50] to just be me and I didn't want to like
[3:53] regret or like that I didn't put my
[3:56] personality into because if you don't
[3:57] like me for who I am I probably don't
[3:59] want to work with you in the first place
[4:01] so if you're going to judge me that my
[4:03] website is pink then I I probably don't
[4:05] want to work with
[4:07] you that's super powerful that reflect
[4:10] two thing that reflect two thing number
[4:12] one that you know who you are and most
[4:15] people don't like it takes time to
[4:19] understand who they are and to the label
[4:22] when they you actually understand like
[4:24] the personality points and behaviors and
[4:27] some patterns and then second
[4:30] can you are at the point have courage to
[4:34] decide which company you want to work at
[4:39] versus there are programmers in the
[4:41] early stage who just want to get any job
[4:46] right they they're not at the luxury of
[4:49] selecting so I want to ask followup
[4:52] question how did that happen first how
[4:54] did you find yourself and then second
[4:57] how did you come to the point where you
[5:00] actually feel so confident about
[5:03] choosing so I'm not new to the workforce
[5:06] I've been a project manager and I've
[5:07] been working for a decade now so I knew
[5:12] have had experience where I've had not
[5:15] the greatest company that I've worked
[5:16] for and I know I didn't enjoy it and I
[5:20] was lucky enough where my partner was
[5:23] willing to pay for all my financials and
[5:26] he told me specifically to join a
[5:29] company that I actually want to join
[5:31] because if I'm going to go through this
[5:33] career transition and go back to a
[5:37] company that I don't like it's going to
[5:40] burn me out again and he doesn't want
[5:42] that to happen so I was very fortunate
[5:44] where I could be a little more picky
[5:46] with who I wanted to work for and I had
[5:49] a list I think I had five non-negotiable
[5:52] traits that I needed to be from the
[5:56] company like one of them was I wanted
[5:59] the work schedule to be flexible it
[6:01] didn't have to be fully remote the
[6:03] remote was a nice plus just because I
[6:05] know personally I work better in that
[6:08] type of environment and I I don't
[6:11] typically do very well when it's a very
[6:13] rigid like 95 and typical work schedule
[6:18] so I knew what I wanted was that is to
[6:21] be more flexible work schedule whether
[6:23] it be hybrid or remote and then I also
[6:27] wanted a really good manager so I didn't
[6:30] want anyone who was like very big on
[6:32] micromanaging or always telling me like
[6:36] you need to do this and this I wanted
[6:38] someone who was more a leader who is my
[6:42] manager rather than manager who's just a
[6:44] manager so I think out of all of my list
[6:47] like those two were the biggest most
[6:49] important things to me and every time I
[6:53] interview the company I always made sure
[6:55] to ask questions relating to like their
[6:57] culture how they like manage or like how
[7:00] they manage anything and how they
[7:03] basically just treat their employees on
[7:04] a day-to-day basis and there definitely
[7:07] wor some company where I got offers I
[7:09] actually got an offer one month of the
[7:11] job searching because my job search was
[7:14] six months long first month in I got an
[7:16] offer I could have taken it but it was
[7:20] definitely a company that didn't fully
[7:22] align with what I wanted so I ended up
[7:23] actually rejecting the
[7:25] offer but I'm very happy with my
[7:27] decision because where I it now I feel
[7:31] like it's everything that I've wanted
[7:34] awesome and I think the some credit goes
[7:37] to your partner so goodess to him or her
[7:41] yeah he definitely was a big supporter
[7:43] in my whole journey because he always
[7:45] kept reminding me because I had like
[7:47] time where I was like rejecting jobs but
[7:49] then I also got rejected a lot too so
[7:53] sometimes I felt like regret like I
[7:55] should have maybe I should have just
[7:56] taken that job cuz then I wouldn't have
[7:57] to go through this like reject or
[8:00] constant no or getting ghosted and
[8:03] whatnot and then he just like you
[8:05] wouldn't have liked it though so just
[8:08] keep applying keep studying whatever and
[8:10] then he was right yeah yeah it it's
[8:13] great to have someone like
[8:15] them so goodness to them and
[8:19] then congratulation that you have
[8:22] somebody like that so let's go back to
[8:26] for this job I want to ask you what's
[8:28] your typical dat look like typical day
[8:30] or a typical week look like at this job
[8:33] so at work my team is fully remote we're
[8:38] also not very big on using our webcams
[8:41] too which is funny we start off our day
[8:43] with standup I feel like it's a very
[8:45] typical way to start your day and my
[8:48] team is
[8:50] actually the majority is in California
[8:53] we're a Pacific time zone team but I'm
[8:55] in the central they're two hours behind
[8:58] me so we have stand up at 12: PM my time
[9:04] and I'll get on a little earlier whether
[9:07] it be like 9 or 10 a.m. because that
[9:10] time zone between 9:00 and 10 a.m. to
[9:12] stand up is like when I could really
[9:14] focus without any interruptions from
[9:16] anyone because everyone is still sleep
[9:18] and that's how I usually start my day
[9:20] and we'll do stand up our stand up is
[9:22] pretty quick I think it's only 5 to 10
[9:24] minutes long and after that if we have
[9:27] meetings we'll go to the meetings but
[9:29] lately I haven't had too many meetings
[9:31] it's usually just been like standup and
[9:33] then at the start of the Sprint we'll
[9:35] have like our Sprint planning like day
[9:38] before so we know what tasks we need to
[9:40] do and our Sprints are every two weeks
[9:44] and regarding the Sprint we only have
[9:47] one task assigned to us at the start and
[9:50] we get to choose what that task is as
[9:53] long as there's no like weird
[9:54] dependencies that are blocking it in the
[9:56] first place and from there my manager
[9:59] has a lot of trust in us so we have all
[10:02] the tickets that we want completed and
[10:04] like what our velocity Sprint points
[10:06] we're aiming for and we'll have all of
[10:08] these tickets laid out but they're just
[10:09] not assigned to anyone and as we finish
[10:12] our ticket we just pick a new one and
[10:14] assign it to ourselves and just continue
[10:16] completing them and he has a lot of
[10:17] trust that we will complete everything
[10:20] that is supposed to be completed for his
[10:23] spr and we've never had any issues not
[10:26] completing them we're actually having
[10:28] the opposite problem where we're we're
[10:29] completing too much and we're going over
[10:32] like this 100% rate so we're end up
[10:35] doing 110 to 120% which doesn't look too
[10:40] great it's like having a good problem
[10:42] but like leadership wants us to bring it
[10:44] down to 100% or 99 you know just to make
[10:47] it more make more sense but he said it's
[10:50] a good
[10:52] problem so this is interesting we also
[10:55] do scrum and two week scrum but and I
[10:58] haven't spoken to many other people in
[11:00] other companies who are doing scrum but
[11:02] I have not heard about this one so tell
[11:05] me more about it so you pick one and
[11:09] then as soon you finish something and
[11:12] enough time is available you would pick
[11:15] another one so ahead of time before the
[11:18] Sprint starts we have to make sure that
[11:22] our Sprint has all the tickets say we're
[11:25] doing like 30 points or something like
[11:27] that for that Sprint all the tickets
[11:30] that we need to get completed to get 30
[11:32] points is already assigned we have them
[11:36] available and ready and they just sit in
[11:39] the Sprint board just like onestly oh
[11:41] okay okay okay okay not in the backlog
[11:43] but the Sprint board good that I
[11:46] clarified I thought you guys only pick
[11:50] one item in the Sprint board and then
[11:52] you pick from the backlog oh no so it's
[11:55] already on the Sprint board it's just
[11:57] completely unassigned and product
[11:58] already went through it figure out what
[12:00] is like the highest priority what needs
[12:02] to get completed because we've had this
[12:05] tendency of overachieving our goal what
[12:09] my product person does is for the next
[12:12] spr he puts all of the tasks that are
[12:14] the highest priority at the top so we
[12:16] know exactly what to drag in if we have
[12:20] do awesome and then do you have a formal
[12:23] scrum master or not I we do have a scrum
[12:27] Master but I feel like she's more like
[12:29] she's just like a team mom to say so
[12:34] we're very good at making sure there is
[12:37] a good separation like we collaborate
[12:39] and we have good separation at the same
[12:41] time with product and she's very good at
[12:44] separating at what meetings we actually
[12:47] have to be involved in because sometimes
[12:49] they're like oh you need the entire team
[12:51] and she'll be like no we only need like
[12:53] the manager you don't have to involve
[12:55] every developer in this meeting so she
[12:58] makes sure that we don't have like
[13:00] excess need we really don't need it
[13:01] which is very nice yeah give you focus
[13:05] like you she's the protector of the team
[13:08] so that developer can focus and is she
[13:11] has one team or many team as a scrum
[13:14] master I believe she has two teams so
[13:19] we're one of the teams and then she's
[13:22] also the scrum Master for one of our
[13:23] sister team okay thank you for sharing
[13:27] all this in this one year
[13:30] what has worked for you and like start
[13:34] with when you join this company and
[13:36] where you are today how big is that
[13:39] difference and what has worked to help
[13:42] you get there so I would say I've always
[13:46] been very curious as a person but even
[13:49] when I was job searching I made a lot of
[13:51] projects just because I was curious
[13:53] about a certain technology tool Etc and
[13:56] I just wanted to use it and
[13:59] that Curiosity has helped me a lot with
[14:01] work too because two months into my job
[14:06] I was going into our database my senior
[14:10] found like the start of an issue and she
[14:13] brought it up to our manager and our
[14:15] manager was like oh that's definitely
[14:17] not right because we had a duplicated
[14:19] records in our database and our
[14:20] production database and our manager was
[14:24] like there's going to be the manual
[14:26] process to this but it was such an
[14:29] ambiguous like bug we un uncovered that
[14:33] we didn't really know how much work was
[14:35] going to be put into this and no one
[14:37] wants to do like manual work and it's
[14:40] very tedious but being me like my team
[14:45] uses a nosql database I wasn't too
[14:47] familiar with a nosql database structure
[14:49] I was very familiar with SQL which I
[14:51] feel like most people sequel you learn
[14:54] first so I was like okay I I will take
[14:56] on this test because I feel like it's a
[14:58] good way for me to understand this noal
[15:00] database at a faster level because I
[15:03] learned by doing and if I could learn by
[15:07] doing the database and fixing this issue
[15:11] it would probably help
[15:12] me pick up what our database actually
[15:15] does and how it's structured and how the
[15:17] queries work and everything because I
[15:20] was still so used to the SQL like
[15:23] knowledge in my head that it was
[15:25] conflicting with how it actually works
[15:27] for our team's product so I took on a
[15:30] task even though I didn't really know
[15:33] how to go about it very much but my team
[15:37] actually trusted me enough to actually
[15:38] give it to me there is like this junior
[15:40] coming in she's only been here for a
[15:42] month and a half two months and we're
[15:44] going to let her like touch our
[15:46] production database that's not very
[15:47] common my team was actually very
[15:49] supportive of that and they're just like
[15:51] if you break it just rewind it it's fine
[15:54] just make a coffee before
[15:57] you they're very supportive that and I
[15:59] appreciate that because of that support
[16:02] I was able to basically complete the
[16:06] task of fixing this issue it turned out
[16:08] to be a lot bigger than what it actually
[16:10] was because as I dug into it it kept
[16:13] getting bigger and bigger of what the
[16:15] issue was and it ended up affecting
[16:19] quite did the math it ended up 22% of
[16:22] our database was
[16:23] compromised so that's a very large chunk
[16:27] when we're dealing with how many records
[16:28] we have had at that time and it took me
[16:33] about two months to fix it and my team
[16:38] actually let me fix it by myself too
[16:40] because they saw me like progressing
[16:42] with every step that I had to do and I
[16:44] was very over communicative of what I
[16:46] was doing and my team was like okay
[16:50] she's like on track she's doing it right
[16:52] she's not breaking anything nothing has
[16:54] crashed yet so let's keep trusting what
[16:56] she's doing and my carry
[16:59] just led me down this rabbit hole on
[17:01] their database and I fixed it two months
[17:04] and then I actually got awarded like a
[17:06] gift for fixing our database because I
[17:08] fixed it without it ever crashing or
[17:11] like we never have to do any downtime so
[17:15] it was like what you said like I
[17:16] remember you told me during our cohort
[17:18] it was 60% planning and like 40% like
[17:21] actually that's exactly what I did I had
[17:24] this obsidian notwork or just plans for
[17:27] every single step I had to do to make
[17:29] sure I removed everything as smoothly as
[17:33] possible without any downtime because I
[17:35] was trying my best to avoid
[17:37] downtime and we don't like to do any
[17:40] releases on non business hours so I was
[17:43] trying to figure out how do I fix this
[17:45] during business hours where I have the
[17:47] support of like my
[17:49] teammates and we don't have to do
[17:51] anything off hours and a lot of planning
[17:55] a lot of like reviews like with my
[17:59] seniors and actually my senior principal
[18:02] engineer he actually helped me like with
[18:04] reviews and stuff like that and then he
[18:07] ended up becoming my mentor because of
[18:08] this too which is a nice club and now my
[18:12] team they call me anme which is the
[18:14] subject matter expert for our database
[18:16] now because I've gotten so good at our
[18:18] database just because of this one t or
[18:21] one long task that I had to do for this
[18:24] bug and I got to do it because I was
[18:26] curious and I was ALS so volunteering
[18:30] myself to do it because no one wanted to
[18:32] do it and it was painful at first and it
[18:35] kept unraveling more bugs but then
[18:38] because of that I learned so much in
[18:40] such a short time frame I think I went
[18:43] from being so confused about our
[18:44] database and then in about a month I was
[18:47] like I completely understood everything
[18:49] about it and it got them to the point
[18:51] where I was collaborating with like our
[18:54] client teams that were using our API and
[18:58] they just went pray to me instead of
[18:59] talk to anyone else cuz they're like oh
[19:01] this girl knows what she's talking about
[19:03] what the data is so anytime they ever
[19:05] had any issues or like questions they
[19:07] would just message me instead of anyone
[19:09] else on my team and I've gotten like
[19:10] that reputation now where if we need
[19:12] help we just message her wow this is a
[19:15] very powerful story and something that
[19:18] people can follow it's always happened
[19:21] that there is a
[19:23] situation and there will be some natural
[19:27] leaders who will will step up and there
[19:30] will be people who will be more cautious
[19:32] right and then there will be people who
[19:34] will wait for other person to assign it
[19:36] to them and the people who take the
[19:39] initiative they gets the opportunity
[19:42] originally nobody will tell you that
[19:44] because you will do this you will get an
[19:46] award you will get trust you will get a
[19:48] ownership of an area and then you will
[19:51] become a dependent that nobody want your
[19:53] integral part of the team right nobody
[19:56] have told you all that and if somebody
[19:59] have said all these things there maybe
[20:01] two other people who would be uh willing
[20:04] to step up but the thing is when you
[20:07] don't see any of those things and you
[20:09] step up naturally that's when things
[20:12] happen yeah definitely that was a big
[20:16] factor of how my team began to trust me
[20:18] very quickly and now they've always
[20:22] treated me like as an equal on the team
[20:24] no matter what my title was but it's
[20:26] definitely more yeah she could do it I
[20:28] have no question about that and it's
[20:29] like any task they'll be like yeah
[20:31] she'll figure it out that's fine if she
[20:32] has questions she'll ask us or it's like
[20:34] anything I feel like a lot of juniors
[20:36] are usually stuck with I need to do this
[20:38] training before and or they're stuck in
[20:40] this tutorial hell or whatever that they
[20:43] call it where they're just stuck on you
[20:44] need to just do all this unit test or
[20:46] you need to watch this tutorial and you
[20:49] have just stuck doing that for a year
[20:51] luckily because I volunteer myself I
[20:54] feel like all the Tas I get they're like
[20:56] very senior Tas and they'll give me like
[20:59] the highest point ticket and then
[21:01] they'll be like yeah she'll be fine
[21:02] she'll figure it out so because I have
[21:07] that trust now and like my manager
[21:09] trusts me too all of my senior Engineers
[21:11] trust me and now I have like my senior
[21:13] principal engineer who comes and just I
[21:15] like your curiosity and then we'll just
[21:17] have like coffee chats all the time and
[21:19] he'll just help me with like random
[21:21] mentorship stuff and it's very nice I
[21:24] will tell you that the same thing that
[21:26] you can apply later on
[21:29] this was for doing the project or task
[21:32] right you can apply the same thing to
[21:34] fill a role and the way it worked for me
[21:38] is there was a time when our manager
[21:40] left to another company something else
[21:43] and we had a gap there between the time
[21:47] that uh he left and then the time that
[21:50] the directors and BP would hire someone
[21:53] else so that gap of 3 to 4 month Sorry 4
[21:57] to 6 month Gap
[21:59] I naturally step up fill the Gap and
[22:02] team accepted it but I was genuinely
[22:05] helping to fill the Gap and then what
[22:08] happened they made me team leader that
[22:11] after the situation was resolved they
[22:13] brought someone else but uh they notice
[22:16] what I have contributed to and I became
[22:18] team leader similarly in my previous
[22:20] company I became a project leader just
[22:23] because of those situation that I was
[22:25] filling the Gap whether it is technical
[22:27] or nonch technical right rule or a task
[22:32] so that will help you that attitude will
[22:35] always help you I feel like definitely
[22:37] my skills that I've had as a project
[22:39] manager has helped a lot
[22:43] position because my manager calls me an
[22:46] edge case out of like just as like a
[22:48] nickname because you know how to talk to
[22:51] people you can communicate business like
[22:54] ways and you know how to break down
[22:56] technical terms where non-technical
[22:57] people can understand understand it like
[22:59] that's a very great skill to have and
[23:01] he's very happy that I have that skill
[23:03] and it's because of like my old career I
[23:06] was I had to talk to people all the time
[23:08] I had to break things down where it was
[23:10] easy to digest and that has become
[23:13] insanely useful for
[23:15] this so that that brought this point
[23:18] right you probably have already thought
[23:20] about this so there's a vertical growth
[23:22] and then there horizontal growth and for
[23:26] a engineer typically that horizontal
[23:29] growth come from becoming a product
[23:32] owner product managers or engineering
[23:35] managers right vertically you will go to
[23:38] either a architect or a engineering
[23:40] manager but on the horizontal side you
[23:43] can slip into product manager role uh
[23:47] especially technical product manager who
[23:50] typically is higher paying job
[23:54] because they know technology and they
[23:56] know customer so just keep that in mind
[24:00] I don't know if you have already thought
[24:01] about that kind of
[24:03] signification but in your case because
[24:06] of all that one thing that you could do
[24:09] is when you're setting your three years
[24:11] how the next three year look like you
[24:14] could pick all these possible
[24:18] positions and how much scope is there
[24:22] and which one you like you may be a very
[24:26] good technical product manager
[24:28] luckily enough my manager actually
[24:31] talked about that with me because I have
[24:32] biweekly like one-on ones with him and
[24:36] he was like I don't want to plan for
[24:38] like how you are next year I want to
[24:40] plan like your five years like what your
[24:42] polls are and he's very big I'm like
[24:45] even if you're not here like in five
[24:47] years I want to still help get you to
[24:50] your fiveyear goal and he asked me what
[24:54] if I have I want to be an engineering
[24:56] manager or I want to be an architect
[24:58] he'll get someone who is in that
[25:00] position where I can battle them in a
[25:02] way I can just learn like how they are
[25:04] like on a day-to-day basis so uh I'm
[25:07] very big on this so I'm going to deep
[25:09] down onto this um I'm very big on this
[25:11] topic that
[25:14] when initially all you can think about
[25:16] is to get a job but once you get a job
[25:19] the next big thing is how your three to
[25:21] five here look like right and most
[25:25] people unfortunately or many people
[25:27] unfortun Ely go in autopilot
[25:30] mode in which they are very much
[25:33] day-to-day things are happening they're
[25:35] getting Praises or they sometimes sad
[25:38] because they did not get the praise or
[25:40] somebody else took the credit but we
[25:43] have to think Beyond one year or twoe
[25:46] annual appraisal and things like that
[25:48] right so in your case how does that work
[25:52] or what are the specific activities that
[25:54] you have done or your manager have done
[25:58] so I'm more leaning on being like an
[26:00] architect pH because I know I can go our
[26:04] company we have both for individual
[26:08] contributor so if you want to be an
[26:10] individual contributor in my company you
[26:13] can be it goes from the regular
[26:15] engineering and the senior staff
[26:17] principal Etc engineer but you can also
[26:19] go off and be an architect too and that
[26:20] would still fall under the individual
[26:23] contributor and then the opposite is the
[26:25] manager side and I was more interested
[26:29] in going to be an individual but then
[26:31] like Branch off into being an architect
[26:33] rather than a senior or sof senior
[26:36] principal Etc engineer and I want to be
[26:39] an architect because I feel like I do a
[26:43] bit of everything you help multiple team
[26:46] with a very overall goal but you still
[26:48] need to have a very strong technology
[26:51] like background to understand like what
[26:53] Engineers will be doing so that have
[26:57] very much interest me because I feel
[26:59] like it's a very good career to combine
[27:03] all the skills that I have and be useful
[27:05] all at once so to get to that is my
[27:10] manager has been just helping me get all
[27:13] these skills first that I need to get to
[27:15] this position and I've been telling him
[27:18] like oh I did this whole DSD thing I
[27:20] actually being like a team lead for this
[27:22] and he was like okay that's a great
[27:24] thing to have because you okay you're
[27:26] learning how to like lead the team
[27:28] because these are not skills that you
[27:30] can get right away so being exposed to
[27:33] that is like a great start and he
[27:35] actually writes it down as like skills
[27:39] that I'm gaining just so he can say it
[27:41] to HR he's like it may not be at work
[27:43] but she is still getting these skills
[27:45] like outside of work which should still
[27:47] count and he's very happy like I'm I did
[27:50] that and I told him so he's been writing
[27:53] down that he wrote down I did like a
[27:56] talk for a conference he wrote that down
[27:59] at like a skill that I also came too he
[28:01] was like you did public speaking great
[28:03] and so he's writing everything I've done
[28:05] externally down a skills that I can
[28:07] contribute to work to help me beat up
[28:10] any type of like promotions or anything
[28:12] or be like this is proof to HR that she
[28:15] deserves this title or that she should
[28:17] go this path Etc and my manager is very
[28:22] supportive of that and I feel anytime I
[28:25] have any questions he'll link me to the
[28:28] person who will have those answers too
[28:31] and you have a kind of written type of
[28:33] road map or something so we
[28:36] have we it's actually brand new they
[28:39] just made this week okay they were
[28:41] making like the software engineer
[28:42] framework for a while now that just got
[28:45] finished and it has like a direct road
[28:47] map of how to get to each level what
[28:50] skills they're expecting from each too
[28:52] okay
[28:54] okay and I will end this particular
[28:57] session by saying is I think I wasted
[29:01] probably 3 4
[29:04] years deciding to go between architect
[29:08] role and manager role initially I did
[29:11] not want to be a manager I wanted to
[29:13] stay in
[29:15] technology and it just happened that I
[29:19] went into this direction and I'm so glad
[29:22] because I did not miss any of the
[29:25] technology thing that that I originally
[29:27] thought I would
[29:28] Miss in fact it it exponentially
[29:33] increased because now at that time I
[29:36] started looking at five application five
[29:39] different teams and each team wherever
[29:41] the the fun was happening fun as in
[29:45] crucial things are happening production
[29:47] release are happening or production down
[29:49] type thing is happening you are there so
[29:52] you were having all those fun anyway but
[29:55] it just remove the repeat work that you
[29:58] would do in coding so all I'm saying I'm
[30:01] not pushing anything to you but I'm
[30:03] saying just be open-minded whichever
[30:05] position come first take that if this is
[30:09] the team leader position or a manager
[30:11] position just take it I think you will
[30:13] be excellent there I've seen you oh
[30:16] thank you so yeah just take it I I think
[30:19] you will do great and whenever that
[30:23] happen have a complete reset mhm there
[30:27] is a very famous book what got you here
[30:31] will not get you there so very famous
[30:34] book the concept is as a developer
[30:37] individual contributor that you said you
[30:40] are praised and uh rewarded for the
[30:45] skill that won't work when you changing
[30:48] the road it most of the time it has to
[30:51] start from a scratch the most important
[30:54] thing that I felt like I missed anytime
[30:56] I change my role is the gut feeling and
[31:00] I'm somebody who go by gut feeling more
[31:03] than the fact I just go by my what I
[31:07] feel and with new Ro you miss that like
[31:11] it it build up with time and as you said
[31:15] you're somebody who learn by doing
[31:17] things so for people like us it takes
[31:20] time to build up that gut feeling and
[31:23] once you have that gut feeling you're
[31:25] awesome yeah good point because
[31:28] I know for my company I know there's
[31:30] like some companies that like the
[31:32] managers don't know how to do any coding
[31:34] or they're not very technical at all for
[31:37] my company we actually require all of
[31:39] our engineering managers to know how to
[31:41] code and they still should be able to
[31:43] contribute to our code base if needed
[31:46] that would be very rare but if they had
[31:47] to for an emergency they can and I feel
[31:51] like my manager he definitely still
[31:53] knows how to code he's very although he
[31:56] doesn't code with the language knew he
[31:59] codes and
[32:00] go he knows how to translate it very
[32:03] well to python because python is not
[32:05] very hard to translate from
[32:07] taxwise and feel like that's a very
[32:10] valuable skill at least for my company
[32:12] that I've seen and I wouldn't be against
[32:15] doing engineering manager if it did
[32:17] require you to still have like technical
[32:20] knowledge and being still technically
[32:23] available to help out but it just
[32:26] depends on the company because I know
[32:27] not all of companies are like that yeah
[32:30] many companies especially in us most of
[32:33] the company I would say most but many
[32:35] company like I have friends in different
[32:37] companies and they are all very
[32:39] technically heavy but it changes like
[32:41] your perspective changes from a class a
[32:46] function to a class to a library to a
[32:50] micros service to a project to a impact
[32:54] that you're making a influence that
[32:56] you're making to whatever problem
[32:57] problem that you're solving so just you
[33:00] get a layer up to a bigger
[33:05] perspective and it's almost if you are
[33:07] near a
[33:08] mountain you get amazing view at the top
[33:12] and amazing view at the bottom and
[33:15] differ lay right at the bottom you will
[33:17] able to see the lake uh beautiful Lake
[33:21] and then trees and then if you go at the
[33:23] top you will able to see so many other
[33:26] mountain peaks and
[33:28] so it's not that which view is good or
[33:32] bad it just same kind of excitement at
[33:36] each label I like thaty I never thought
[33:38] of it like that so that's pretty good
[33:40] one I like that yeah so you will be able
[33:42] to see at the manager level you will be
[33:45] probably able to see five different
[33:47] project five different Peaks and at any
[33:50] point you will have an option to go
[33:53] deeper into any of those Peak those
[33:57] Mountain and have a conversation with
[33:59] whoever is working there you even able
[34:02] to get the entire picture work on that
[34:05] project work on the problem and then
[34:07] come back go to another one I like that
[34:11] that makes me more curious about the
[34:13] engineering like management because I
[34:15] never I just never thought of
[34:17] them maybe I a bad in
[34:21] today no because I'm still like I'm
[34:25] still picking what I want to do like I
[34:26] haven't I'm not concrete on anything bad
[34:31] in way you company might have just L one
[34:35] architect why not have like experience
[34:37] of just a little bit of both before
[34:41] once yeah spend time enjoy what you have
[34:45] and then keep
[34:46] going wow we spent a lot of time in this
[34:49] one it's okay I don't have to C you okay
[34:53] so I will pick up one more topic you
[34:55] said when you was preparing for the your
[34:58] first job or the change in your career
[35:02] you need a lot of projects so tell about
[35:05] that I have heard many developers who
[35:07] are trying to find job like they not
[35:11] able to decide which project to do or
[35:14] the project idea or finding the team
[35:16] members or right they go too much into
[35:20] the Tactical mode versus just doing the
[35:23] project so tell what was your thought
[35:26] process how did you pick ideas and how
[35:27] did you executed them so I knew how bad
[35:33] the market was when I was just searching
[35:35] for a job so I made sure the projects I
[35:39] made were valuable at least to the point
[35:42] where I will actually learn something
[35:44] from it because I didn't want to fall
[35:46] into that trap of just doing one
[35:48] tutorial next tutorial ET because if I'm
[35:51] just following code I don't really
[35:53] understand what I just did exactly cuz
[35:56] my brain just doesn't work like that
[35:57] like I need to like make it myself so I
[36:00] tried to avoid tutorials if I could and
[36:03] I basically just made little things that
[36:06] I thought was fun for me because if it
[36:09] was fun for me I actually did them and I
[36:12] tried to solve them a little further and
[36:14] further every time and I think I started
[36:17] off with two different projects they
[36:18] were very basic there was nothing
[36:20] special about them but then as I learned
[36:23] more tools like say like I learned like
[36:25] Docker or like I learned terraform Etc I
[36:29] would go back to those projects and
[36:31] Implement those tools I just learned
[36:32] into them and I would just make a new
[36:35] version of my project and it went from
[36:37] like version one and then it went to
[36:39] like version 20 like what I did like
[36:41] going constantly going back can you give
[36:44] you an example of those two projects
[36:46] because I want give really uh concrete
[36:50] tactical thing that they don't have to
[36:52] over things so I started off with python
[36:57] because that just what I learned
[36:59] language wise and I was like okay what
[37:01] can I do with python and I actually came
[37:03] from a boot camp my boot camp was not
[37:06] full stack it was actually devops boot
[37:09] camp so I went and learned a lot of
[37:12] devop stuff and like scripting not
[37:15] really necessarily like
[37:16] development so I was curious on the
[37:19] development side of coding and I was
[37:23] like okay what can I do with python and
[37:25] I was like okay what is this thing
[37:26] called Black and I learned learned what
[37:27] flask was and flask was it's just a
[37:31] python framework so that was like my
[37:33] first step into software development so
[37:36] I started with a very basic like flask
[37:39] application just to make it work it was
[37:42] very ugly and all it did was like you
[37:46] can click the button to like input like
[37:48] a word and like your name and it just
[37:50] stored it didn't than that that's what
[37:53] I'm talking about this exactly why I was
[37:56] asking it doesn't have to be super fancy
[37:59] doesn't have to be uh a a groundbreaking
[38:02] idea MH it was super basic and then I
[38:06] just took that idea and I evolved it so
[38:09] went from just like a simple input to
[38:11] where I could upload an image to it so I
[38:14] was like okay we're going to make it in
[38:16] put like an image instead of just like a
[38:18] regular string like text So eventually I
[38:22] made it where I could upload an image
[38:24] and it would store that image and then
[38:27] evolved from that to where I started
[38:30] learning about Docker and I was like oh
[38:31] what is this tool so I learned Docker
[38:34] and then I ended up learning how to make
[38:35] my FL application into an image so I
[38:38] could use that image and then deploy it
[38:40] with Docker oh there's my cat and
[38:42] actually she was my inspiration for my
[38:45] project and it evolved where I was like
[38:47] I'm open cat can I do anything with that
[38:50] so I actually started involving AI into
[38:53] my application where if I uploaded a
[38:56] picture it could detect what was the
[38:59] picture just like a basic object
[39:01] detection and I started like just
[39:05] messing around a little bit with AI so I
[39:07] did something with Amazon's recognition
[39:11] which is one of their resources that has
[39:13] Ai and I basically just fed their model
[39:16] hundreds of pictures of cats and
[39:18] hundreds of pictures of dogs and every
[39:21] time you would upload a picture it would
[39:23] tell you if it was a cat or a dog and
[39:27] that was slowly evolved from that and
[39:30] then I evolved it again where I was
[39:32] using Herra form to actually create all
[39:35] of my AWS infrastructure that I needed
[39:38] and then I created a whole like cicd
[39:40] pipeline where it like automatically
[39:43] would update my image and use that to
[39:45] deploy my updated
[39:47] application and then it evolved to where
[39:51] instead of just detecting if it's a cat
[39:54] or a dog it can detect anything that was
[39:57] on the photo like up to five objects on
[40:00] the photo and it would tell you this is
[40:02] this be like a cat if it was only a cat
[40:05] it will tell you different breeds of cat
[40:07] like it's a white cat it's a whatever
[40:11] breed that it thinks it is and or if it
[40:14] was just like a picture with multiple
[40:16] things in it and be like this is a boy
[40:17] this is a girl this cow like like
[40:20] whatever was in the picture and it'll do
[40:23] five of them and then I Advanced it
[40:26] again where it would detect everything
[40:29] that was in the object and it would also
[40:32] do a percentage of how sure it was that
[40:35] item so with say if it's like a flower
[40:39] it'll tell you flower and it'll give you
[40:40] like a specific flower and look at
[40:43] accuracy of like I like 99% sure it is
[40:46] this flower so it just revolved into
[40:50] this kind of like object detection
[40:52] program and it just started with the
[40:54] most basic FL application
[40:58] yeah that's I think this is one of we
[41:01] have you have shared a lot of impactful
[41:03] thing and this is I think one of the
[41:06] most imp impactful thing and people have
[41:09] to listen to this I think just start
[41:12] with a login page and then keep evolving
[41:16] it based on whatever idea comes at that
[41:19] day or whatever is the next logical
[41:23] thing you reminded me of an application
[41:26] that I did many years ago I it was a web
[41:30] page that I built for myself I had I was
[41:33] I really like listening to song and I'm
[41:37] talking 2001 where all these iPhones
[41:40] nothing
[41:41] exist and it's
[41:44] streaming uh or I think streaming was
[41:48] new maybe but anyway I had CDs and
[41:52] cassett so I converted them into an MP3
[41:56] and then I stored that on my office
[41:58] laptop and then I created a web page
[42:01] where I can just play them simple code
[42:05] and uh and then every time I
[42:08] would get more files more new album
[42:11] movie album I would just drop it in this
[42:14] folder and my program will just capture
[42:18] that my wor than world was making all
[42:21] this hyperlink myself version two was
[42:24] reading this file and uh creating the
[42:27] link Now understand that browser does
[42:29] not catch there is a limitation so I I
[42:33] had to make a program on the server side
[42:35] and the client side and all make it work
[42:38] and then I started sharing with my
[42:41] friends like my colleague my team
[42:44] members and what happened 6 month later
[42:47] there was people
[42:49] from other
[42:51] department and who I never met and they
[42:54] complimenting me will listen to your
[42:57] song it's pretty great because to my
[43:01] friend I gave that host file so that
[43:05] they can put the IP and everything to
[43:07] access my machine in the network and
[43:11] that host file or host entry went to
[43:14] many people in the skope and then I was
[43:17] like that but I just learned a lot from
[43:21] that project because every time either I
[43:24] would add something or the people who
[43:26] was listening to it would ask something
[43:28] and I would keep adding
[43:30] that that's a great way to go about it I
[43:32] build the network because of that like
[43:35] if people know me because
[43:38] of that's really great yeah I feel like
[43:40] a lot of people over complicate it in
[43:42] the beginning they're just like I need
[43:44] this Amazing Project it has to fix the
[43:47] world or something like that like it
[43:49] doesn't have to like it just start with
[43:52] something basic and then evolve it
[43:55] because that's I feel like
[43:58] that way is really useful because you
[43:59] prob this like track record in a way
[44:01] that employers can see that they're
[44:03] learning and they're growing and they're
[44:05] taking these skills they learn and
[44:06] applying it which
[44:08] is a lot harder to do than to say
[44:12] because anyone can say I know X Y and Z
[44:15] do you have proof that you actually know
[44:16] it and when you have this track record
[44:18] they can see like
[44:20] proof
[44:22] wow I had many questions more but I
[44:25] think we have added to which value
[44:27] already and
[44:30] I one question that I will ask is what's
[44:33] your goal setting method so my goal
[44:36] setting method is I know what I want as
[44:40] like way down the line so 10 years from
[44:44] now like I want to do X Y and Z so I
[44:47] already know that and it's a very like
[44:50] large go very high level there is no
[44:52] details about it I just know I want to
[44:54] get to this point at one point in my
[44:56] life and I don't have any
[44:59] like depths to it I just notice is my
[45:03] large goal and then from there I'll
[45:05] break it down what can I do to make this
[45:09] more achievable and I'm pretty sure this
[45:11] is just because I was a project manager
[45:13] this is how I used to work I'll figure
[45:14] in the steps to need that I need to get
[45:17] there and then with those steps I will
[45:21] just break it down even further and then
[45:23] each step will break down into more
[45:25] steps underneath and then if that was
[45:27] still to conflict I would break it down
[45:29] even further I would make sure
[45:31] everything I break down is easy enough
[45:33] for me to grass and it's
[45:36] achievable and if I wasn't I would just
[45:39] break it down
[45:40] more wow you just explain work breakdown
[45:44] structure so whoever is listening please
[45:46] search for that that will change your
[45:48] life it changed my life when I
[45:51] understood what word bre down structure
[45:54] mean there's a book GTD getting things
[45:57] done and in that book you always talk
[46:01] about make the plan but then focus on
[46:04] what's the next thing what is the next
[46:06] action clarify that NE next action if
[46:10] the next action is getting the oil
[46:12] change in your car then clarify that NE
[46:16] action to the real next section and real
[46:21] next action is to call the garage to
[46:26] take an appointment which mean the next
[46:28] section is to find the number to call
[46:31] right so he he explained that in the
[46:35] very nice term so between work Bak
[46:37] structure and then getting things done
[46:40] it has helped me completely change how
[46:43] it will make you very proactive
[46:47] so I don't know where I learned that
[46:49] from I feel like it's just like a habit
[46:52] I bu in the project management in the
[46:56] project management waterfall the work
[46:57] breakdown structure is when you give a
[46:59] project we just do a work breakdown
[47:01] structure or different like level one
[47:05] level two level three level level four
[47:07] is very gradual
[47:09] task it's definitely really helpful when
[47:11] it comes to engineering too which I feel
[47:13] like a lot of people don't think about
[47:14] because they're like you have to always
[47:17] to get to the senior level you have to
[47:19] be able to take that ambiguous thought
[47:23] and make it into steps that are like
[47:25] feasible to do and and that's skill that
[47:28] you definitely have to learn to get to
[47:31] that senior
[47:32] level so how did you find the 10e goal I
[47:36] I I have faced that problem that most
[47:38] people don't know what their 10 year
[47:39] look like they know what their 3 month
[47:42] look like see some people know what your
[47:44] one year look like how did you get that
[47:46] 10 year
[47:47] visibility so my 10 year visibility
[47:50] isn't actually like a job title it's
[47:52] actually me just I want to be
[47:55] comfortable and be able ble to afford a
[47:58] good life for my family so that's
[48:00] actually my P goal is to like I want to
[48:02] own this house and I want to be able to
[48:05] have my kids go through and get what
[48:07] they want and go to a good school in a
[48:09] nice neighborhood so that's like my
[48:11] overall goal that I want to do and which
[48:13] is probably what not a lot of people
[48:16] would think of like when it comes to
[48:17] like your 10 year goal like you're
[48:18] probably expecting like a job title or
[48:20] something like that
[48:22] but yeah yeah I was even I was in
[48:26] thinking in this term as well that you
[48:29] have seven areas of your life Health
[48:32] Finance family relationship and all so
[48:35] that's what I thought that you're
[48:36] talking about that and very specific
[48:39] goals around each of those areas M yeah
[48:43] basically like I want that's my large
[48:45] goal is just to have a good life for my
[48:48] family right and I want to live pretty
[48:51] comfortably and not have to worry about
[48:53] anything
[48:54] Financial so that's what I want to and
[48:57] then to get to that point I need to like
[49:00] get to this title to make this much
[49:02] money or I need to have this work life
[49:06] balance and I want to like Target these
[49:08] companies because they're known for work
[49:10] life balance and Etc and whatever
[49:12] companies are very like flexible because
[49:16] you have family and like those are the
[49:18] companies I'd rather work for rather
[49:19] than the startup like I did start up
[49:21] life and I know that's not for me
[49:22] anymore because I don't want to work
[49:25] that many hours again I think what I
[49:28] felt like for me at least for me and my
[49:32] wife that means that we had to build
[49:35] wealth which mean the retirement fund
[49:39] which mean real estate uh portfolio
[49:42] which mean uh a side hustle right
[49:46] obviously other than family relationship
[49:49] and and health I'm talking about what
[49:52] will make you feel comfortable is when
[49:56] you have some asset real estate is
[49:59] definitely a part of my plan too I want
[50:01] to do want to make enough money for my
[50:05] day job where I can invest into real
[50:07] estate and into stocks to diversify my
[50:11] portfolio yeah yeah yeah and I hope uh
[50:16] more and more developers technical folks
[50:20] are doing something like that right
[50:22] because learning to P new framework is
[50:26] good
[50:27] But ultimately when you understand that
[50:30] what you earning and what you're
[50:33] spending is like day-to-day work what
[50:37] you're saving and how you are investing
[50:40] that
[50:41] saving that's where magic happen and
[50:45] yeah basic right basic thing like budget
[50:48] say long-term saving short-term saving
[50:50] and all that sorry you oh I was going to
[50:53] say my parents actually caught me that
[50:55] very young my parents are in real estate
[50:57] so they told me like don't put all of
[51:01] your eggs on in one basket right very
[51:03] common thing cuz yeah you could have a
[51:05] job the job can pay you very well but
[51:07] one day you can just not have it anymore
[51:08] and what are you going to do especially
[51:10] with all the layoffs coming now I don't
[51:12] want to have the I guess the mercy of
[51:15] just my job and that's the only thing
[51:17] that's ever providing for me and I don't
[51:21] want to have that as a reliability in a
[51:24] way lot of conversation
[51:27] I think we can just do this like the
[51:30] topic that we was covering and the
[51:31] natural discussion that we were having
[51:33] maybe we can do something like that
[51:34] monthly talk Eugene and re know if you
[51:39] want like I I it was a nice conversation
[51:41] it didn't feel like anything f it was
[51:43] just like a
[51:46] conversation I will go to my last
[51:48] question is there any question that I
[51:50] did not ask but you want to answer I
[51:52] don't know I don't really think of
[51:54] anything super specific I feel like we
[51:56] kind of
[51:57] like we covered a lot of different
[51:59] questions it was it became like more
[52:02] casual conversation very t a real thing
[52:05] like real thing that can help people
[52:08] developers so do you have any question
[52:10] for
[52:11] me what is the biggest thing that you
[52:14] see as always like the most common
[52:17] problem a lot of like people who are
[52:18] trying to
[52:20] transition and like what they always
[52:22] face that you feel like is very common
[52:25] between a lot of
[52:27] people who are trying to get their first
[52:30] job for their first job I think there
[52:34] are people who are not putting
[52:37] effort and they're trying to get to the
[52:41] solution
[52:42] quickly which means if they know the DSA
[52:46] is needed and they're trying to avoid it
[52:48] all their life or not doing enough
[52:52] project so I've seen many of those
[52:55] people like that
[52:57] and not being very strategic about the
[53:01] job hunt and I will tell you just three
[53:04] things to give you illustration that
[53:07] what I'm talking about everybody is
[53:10] talking about making engagement Network
[53:13] referral and all that but they won't do
[53:16] the basic stuff and that apply to
[53:18] somebody without experience and that
[53:21] apply to somebody with three year of
[53:23] experience very basic thing if if you
[53:26] want to build your network instead of
[53:29] going and finding all the new people
[53:31] hunting new people in spaces and whatnot
[53:35] just go to the people who you work with
[53:39] work with
[53:40] sorry you studied with so if you go to
[53:44] the college and you find all the people
[53:47] who was there plus your junior plus your
[53:51] senior up to 3 to 5 year and because you
[53:55] studied in that College you will get a
[53:57] list alumini list and when you send them
[54:01] message they will respond back to you
[54:03] because you're from the same college
[54:05] right very high possibility and then
[54:08] those many of those are in software and
[54:11] they will vouch for you they will help
[54:14] you so just like basic thing people are
[54:17] not doing that so to answer your
[54:19] question that's the pattern that I've
[54:22] seen okay yeah I think I feel like I've
[54:24] seen a very similar pattern too because
[54:27] I always get asked how did I do it like
[54:29] I get a lot of connections asking me
[54:31] like what did you do to break a tech and
[54:33] there like hard Market you don't have a
[54:36] degree in Com or science or anything so
[54:39] what did you do stand out that I feel
[54:41] like there's times where if I say what I
[54:44] did they're just like that's too hard
[54:46] can you make it easier no it's hard I
[54:48] don't know why you think it's easy to
[54:50] begin with and I feel like there's a lot
[54:52] of
[54:53] misconception about it if I just do this
[54:56] I'll make six figures or something like
[54:58] that
[54:59] yeah I always say that first three to
[55:02] four years are the hardest in software
[55:06] once you have that Foundation it become
[55:09] easier and enjoyable but the first one
[55:12] is really hard yeah that's great good
[55:15] information thank you for that all right
[55:18] so last question what is your message to
[55:21] anybody who is watching this
[55:25] episode my message I would say not to
[55:29] give up because I know there are times
[55:32] where you just have mental breakdown
[55:35] because I know I did I went through
[55:37] quite a few of them myself so I
[55:39] understand the struggle but if you let
[55:43] that win I feel like you're just going
[55:45] to live with regret in a way so just
[55:48] keep pushing obviously if you have to do
[55:50] a side job or something while you're
[55:53] still continuing that's fine that's
[55:54] completely normal and I feel like
[55:57] there's a bad stigma against that to a
[55:59] lot of people where they're just like
[56:01] I'm I have to make money so I need a Dev
[56:04] job now I was like do you need a de job
[56:06] now like why can't you work somewhere
[56:08] else in the meantime while you still
[56:11] study because if you only focus on
[56:14] getting that Dev job and you're not
[56:17] there yet to that Gap that you need to
[56:19] hit then it's going to take you forever
[56:22] to get that first St job and you're
[56:25] going to be financially stressed so to
[56:28] relieve that stress I think they should
[56:29] take on you could take on a job that's
[56:33] not Tech while have that flexibility of
[56:37] financi support while being able to stud
[56:40] and you don't have to worry about can I
[56:42] pay my pills on
[56:47] time I would say don't be afraid of that
[56:50] and then also to just keep learning
[56:53] because I feel like a lot of people just
[56:55] stop still finish their boot camp and
[56:57] then they'll just stop they just Jesus
[56:59] what I did My Capstone I was like your
[57:01] Capstone was two years ago what did you
[57:03] do with sense and there's some people
[57:05] I've talked to they're like that that's
[57:06] it I've only done my caps I was like for
[57:09] why I keep learning you shouldn't just
[57:10] stop because you finished your boot camp
[57:13] or school or your course or whatever
[57:15] just keep doing something
[57:17] afterwards and just follow the advice
[57:19] that you had or what you did is start
[57:22] with a very basic project and keep
[57:24] evolving it with all M each new
[57:27] technology just keep doing it and it
[57:30] doesn't have to be anything like super
[57:32] fancy like yeah it doesn't have to solve
[57:35] world hunger or anything like that like
[57:37] I my cat with my photo and my muse and
[57:41] it a silly application but I learned a
[57:43] lot from it well Eugene thank you so
[57:48] much this was a very fun episode and I
[57:52] really enjoyed like this conversation I
[57:55] I really enjoyed it and I always like
[57:57] your company when DS DSD and you joined
[58:00] some of our meetings it was amazing so
[58:04] thank you and I always enjoy all of my
[58:07] conversation with
[58:08] you yeah I'm blessed to have a friend
[58:11] like you thank you thank you and then
[58:13] you were definitely a big factor to
[58:15] getting my first job too because I
[58:17] learned so much from you when you were
[58:18] leading dstd
[58:20] too I appreciate
[58:23] that all
[58:25] right e