From Developer to Community Leader | Navigating Career, Burnout, and Tech Talks

[0:00] hello welcome and Namaste today my guest
[0:03] is Santos V one of our common friend
[0:07] pratus introduce us and then I saw your
[0:10] journey you have been doing a lot of
[0:12] things on your professional work as well
[0:16] as everything that you do to help uh
[0:19] developers and their career and then
[0:21] their Journey so I think this episode
[0:24] will be an amazing one with lot of
[0:27] actionable advice and everything so with
[0:30] that I wanted to hand over Mike to you
[0:33] Santos by to share what you do and how
[0:37] is your typical day and week look
[0:40] like first of all thank you uh thank you
[0:42] for the opportunity to actually come
[0:44] here and share uh mag very excited and
[0:48] little bit about myself my name is
[0:50] Santos and I'm from India Bally um I
[0:53] live in Germany now it's been 2 years uh
[0:56] since I moved to Germany I live near
[0:58] Hamburg in case yeah to hamper just like
[1:01] we know we can of course catch up in as
[1:03] a developer of course I work full-time
[1:06] at solonus so I'm a senior oft engineer
[1:08] there uh working on a platform um team
[1:11] and yeah
[1:14] and in the community of I have been pry
[1:17] active since 2019 so I'm a developer
[1:20] expert for angular also become um a G
[1:24] Star I was the first Indian G star and
[1:26] yeah I'm also part of another program
[1:28] called Den Champs so man is a tool for
[1:31] you can it's a ba tool for monor Report
[1:34] with support of monor report it's an
[1:36] amazing tool I just use it everywhere I
[1:38] go and lucky to use it fulltime take my
[1:41] current job as well and we run a
[1:44] community so I'm also a cound for
[1:46] Community called This is learning so we
[1:48] have some two Publications actually this
[1:50] is learning and this is angular because
[1:52] me and my co-founder both are actually
[1:54] Ang developers so he's try to keep Ang
[1:57] plate because of there's a need on uh
[2:00] there was space for it so we we thought
[2:02] of doing that and we also run a podcast
[2:05] uh which is called the talks uh we are
[2:07] still doing it so of course in case you
[2:10] get some time in future I will drop your
[2:11] mail and probably you can join our our
[2:14] podcast we do some episodes after June
[2:16] so of course I me reach out to you for
[2:18] sure and we'll be honored to have you
[2:20] yeah so yeah this is pretty much of what
[2:22] I do there is so many thing that I want
[2:26] to ask followup questions on a want to
[2:30] ask a typical day or week how is how
[2:34] that looked like for
[2:36] you totally depends one thing which I'm
[2:39] really bad at is time management so
[2:41] whenever someone asked me question like
[2:42] how you manage the time I like I have no
[2:45] idea somehow it works somehow I'm able
[2:47] to do all these things I have gone
[2:49] through medical bouts for sure and of
[2:52] course I learned my lesson that okay
[2:54] pushing myself too much is not good but
[2:56] generally like of course I have a
[2:58] full-time job as I said at salon but I
[3:01] generally try to start like say 9 9:30
[3:04] sometime I start early so I end early
[3:07] but good thing
[3:09] about is of course they really care
[3:11] about your life balance of
[3:14] course never been to 2016 but um Aton
[3:19] even though we are fast growing we are
[3:21] one of the um biggest start German but
[3:25] it's not a s of culture so we are Unis
[3:27] down we care more about pushing to prod
[3:31] which works rather than just pushing
[3:33] something which breaks on we can so wey
[3:36] like yeah till Thursday we try to do our
[3:39] releasers so everyone can enjoy their
[3:40] begin and we Al plan that accordingly so
[3:44] course that part is s and then we do
[3:47] podcast as I said so we try to schedu
[3:48] some episodes which we record over the
[3:50] week then apart from that I'm also we
[3:54] are also doing a conference this in next
[3:57] month it's in we um little bit pive with
[4:00] that like promoting things and like
[4:03] meeting the team and see like how we can
[4:06] do that so that's my current sh right
[4:08] now but it totally depends and sometime
[4:10] actually if you if I'm not doing that
[4:12] probably I'll be doing maybe I'll write
[4:14] something which I don't too much now
[4:18] there was I used to write a lot but as I
[4:20] said it really depends I don't fix a
[4:23] things like for example okay I just want
[4:25] to do this at this time it's not like
[4:27] that I I be like what yeah if I'm bored
[4:30] with something pick up something new so
[4:32] the human mind works better in that way
[4:34] because you're not doing the same thing
[4:36] again and
[4:37] again but yeah then of course traveling
[4:39] to conferences speaking at conferences
[4:42] meetups that's what I do I did almost 13
[4:45] conferences last year so this year I
[4:47] just want to settle down take some time
[4:50] off so I'm not doing 10 11 conferences
[4:53] this year but probably four five
[4:55] currently I hav been done my last meup
[4:58] was in January now mixed convences in me
[5:02] so yeah you're doing so much and then on
[5:05] top of that you're saying you're not
[5:07] good at time management the only way you
[5:09] can do all these because you're doing
[5:12] something some management you're
[5:14] prioritizing at least what need to be
[5:17] done versus watching TV for
[5:20] hours do that as well me and my daughter
[5:23] we love to watch a few seral so we back
[5:25] together and then we like to play rout
[5:27] yeah a lot this but it's okay and then
[5:31] we then play four in a row I was just on
[5:33] vacation for two weeks so of course like
[5:36] that's also important so I just came
[5:38] from vacation on first of April so yeah
[5:41] I do all those things watching TV is
[5:43] something we love I saw your one of the
[5:47] video that you posted is where you
[5:50] you're going from one room to another
[5:52] and your daughter is dropping you for
[5:55] office it was so
[5:58] cute that was the first like first year
[6:00] when I started working remote it
[6:02] actually means a lot to me because it
[6:04] has a back story when M was born of
[6:07] course she was in hospital and then I
[6:09] had to take a lot of loans and I was
[6:11] under lot of debit basically so I ended
[6:13] up working like crazy for four years I
[6:16] was just working and then I miss lot of
[6:18] time and then when I had this
[6:20] realization so I missed four years and
[6:21] she four
[6:23] suddenly so I I felt bad so I felt bad
[6:26] that I couldn't like had so much time
[6:29] with her I could have done that but of
[6:31] course that was something which which
[6:32] was needed right I needed money to pay
[6:34] off all those bits and then when I
[6:37] started working remote and now being
[6:40] there with her full time and that was
[6:42] the day I started working remote full
[6:45] time and it's been four years now so
[6:48] that's actually that video has backstory
[6:50] as well well thank you for sharing that
[6:53] I I thought that was cute but
[6:56] now uh can relate to the meaning of that
[7:00] what he just
[7:02] said I have two kids my son finishing
[7:06] college and then my daughter is in seven
[7:08] so big difference but fortunately that
[7:12] actually helped because during my son
[7:15] young age I was busy building my career
[7:17] so I was in office until 10: sometime 11
[7:20] working weekends and then I moved us and
[7:23] then multiple struggles here as well so
[7:28] and I wanted to build build a web agency
[7:31] onside so I was working more hours and I
[7:34] still remember he is waiting an hour for
[7:37] me to go with him in pool community pool
[7:43] and
[7:44] so many years later when my daughter
[7:47] born I did make a very intentional
[7:50] decisions to give her a priority give
[7:54] family a priority and so I was able to
[7:57] spend so much time with her since her
[8:00] childhood to now even two weeks ago she
[8:04] has a project during a spring break
[8:07] where she was drawing or painting on a
[8:10] school wall so I decided to work from
[8:13] there for 2 days I posted few videos but
[8:16] I was sitting there and anytime she need
[8:18] any help or something I would just go
[8:20] there and help her otherwise I would
[8:22] just working from there and it's it's a
[8:26] blessing that we have that intention
[8:30] and we are able to do that I I guess
[8:33] once you decide once you make that some
[8:35] intention then things work out for you
[8:38] anyway so thank you for sharing that
[8:40] going back to you said you been very
[8:44] heavy in angular and you have Community
[8:46] there you have different type of
[8:49] activities around angular so have you
[8:53] tried to react or no I I started with
[8:58] Windows and then I was doing from.net
[9:01] and then MBC and then I came across Ang
[9:04] JS basically because one of my friend
[9:06] actually was doing some stuff with an
[9:08] can yes at that time and 2017 or end of
[9:12] 2016 like I was thinking about okay what
[9:15] is there any other framework which I
[9:17] want to learn about and then I came
[9:18] across Ang two basically but yeah
[9:22] restart cre learning UL when the version
[9:25] 4 came
[9:27] in and that was the same time I tried
[9:29] little bit of react but BL was adopting
[9:32] typt at that time and angular was the
[9:34] first frame and when I tried typescript
[9:37] it like f like home because do Nate is
[9:39] type language we know type language so I
[9:42] thought of why not doing this because I
[9:44] knew like I had written some of
[9:45] JavaScript I had crazy J queries you can
[9:48] see JavaScript using jQuery so I was
[9:51] aware of the PRACK right which J query
[9:53] hadly and of course Angular JS because
[9:56] it was all JavaScript right so I really
[9:59] types I would say and then I I and okay
[10:03] this is the best thing for me and of
[10:06] course that was the time react was of
[10:07] course
[10:09] and G using
[10:11] typescript Okay I want to go ahead and
[10:14] do type sry angular with and that's how
[10:17] it started okay so I started theet
[10:21] development and then um later on so net
[10:24] as in um c n asp.net and then my role
[10:28] became manager and I was managing the
[10:31] workplace team inet team so there we
[10:37] made a decision to not build a custom
[10:40] application but use uh something called
[10:43] net nuke it's a CMS platform and then
[10:45] from there we move to uh SharePoint
[10:49] Office 360 so SharePoint is St alone in
[10:52] um and then Office 365 so I led a team
[10:57] to build Advent Health corporate
[10:59] intranet that currently used by 100,000
[11:02] people and we migrated from on-prem
[11:04] SharePoint to cloud and we roll out to
[11:07] all entire company so I did that and by
[11:12] that
[11:12] time um the development was not a
[11:15] traditional asp.net or C development we
[11:18] were still building web part we were
[11:20] still building connectors and all and
[11:23] from that point I did two more things I
[11:27] I got contract with
[11:29] uh nintex so I brought them in Advent
[11:33] Health to build the workflows so that
[11:36] avoided not doing more custom
[11:37] applications at that point and then then
[11:40] I became a senior manager and my role
[11:44] was to lead the agile transformation in
[11:47] the consumer team so by that time I was
[11:52] detached completely from
[11:54] development and just now in last one
[11:57] month I'm trying to get back back into
[12:00] but I've been thinking about that for
[12:02] almost a year now I don't get too much
[12:05] time for coding but I've been thinking
[12:07] should I just go back to C and asp.net
[12:10] so that I will get a jump start or
[12:12] should I go with something like react so
[12:15] that I can relate with people whatever
[12:18] they're developing
[12:19] so I'm leading a a cohort right now for
[12:23] free and in that team they're using next
[12:27] neext nextjs yeah so with that theme I
[12:31] started exploring I'm not building but
[12:34] every time they build something I try to
[12:36] run it on my machine and uh that kind of
[12:39] bringing the connection back into coding
[12:42] so that's my high level Journey right
[12:45] now and getting back into some kind of
[12:48] coding I still love.net but it just
[12:52] between Python react next Cloud angular
[12:58] there so much to choose from the
[13:00] landscape is not like it was 10 years
[13:03] ago 20 years
[13:06] ago was easier time right so you just
[13:08] had T J to choose from and then you have
[13:12] if you would have a go with Oracle or
[13:14] and just go with simp and now you have
[13:16] like tons of options yeah everywhere and
[13:19] then you're just scared what should I
[13:20] choose because what happens in case
[13:23] something is replicated and in that time
[13:26] we was like full stack by default
[13:29] yeah when I heard about front end
[13:32] developer first time I honestly did not
[13:34] appreciate I was like laughing like
[13:36] really you you just going to do front
[13:40] end I now I appreciate all the thing
[13:43] that they do with all the fine tuning
[13:46] and all the calls that they make but
[13:49] initially I did not appreciate who why
[13:51] would you want to become a um front end
[13:54] developer and do just um HTML and UI
[14:02] um I I remember like when I was working
[14:05] at a startup in mumbay so we hired a
[14:07] front end developer the first frontend
[14:08] developer and he was doing mostly than
[14:11] CSS and when I tried to move it to front
[14:13] end I was that was a different call
[14:16] together because Ang was more than just
[14:18] a FR right you can do so much things you
[14:21] have router you have fs and you can just
[14:23] F so much things so many things with
[14:25] that and over the years like when are
[14:29] just not doing FR they are also doing
[14:31] devops of course you are taking actions
[14:34] probably somewhere you also interacting
[14:36] a lot with your back end team thanks to
[14:39] JavaScript like taking care of the back
[14:40] end as well now you have Frameworks like
[14:43] for back end as well and somewhere you
[14:45] can fit in fit that into your texti
[14:49] basically so that's a good thing and
[14:52] like even front and right has become so
[14:56] much bigger for example your npm
[15:00] dependencies and everything right when
[15:02] managing your dependency is a fulltime
[15:05] job believe me yeah and I was watching a
[15:07] video this morning I I have a plasite
[15:11] subscription that I buy for my team but
[15:14] because of that I also have that so I
[15:16] was just checking one video next JS big
[15:20] picture and one of the thing that they
[15:22] said it managed 200 plus dependencies
[15:26] for you I wanted to touch on
[15:29] you're running two communities with your
[15:33] co-founder right I wanted to ask more
[15:37] about it what are they and U what's your
[15:41] vision behind it why did you start it
[15:44] yeah so we both big advocate for open
[15:47] learning and open source so it was like
[15:50] in 2019 when I started writing or with
[15:53] when I started getting involved with Ang
[15:54] Community right so we both used to write
[15:56] for a particular community we were both
[15:59] part of it and then the community
[16:01] decided to take other way they wanted to
[16:04] make it PID and we were not very vocal
[16:07] about that we want to promote free stuff
[16:09] so we can both decide they step back he
[16:12] said okay we we will not take part in
[16:14] this and of course then my friend last
[16:17] who is my co-founder and he's also one
[16:19] pick up star from Denmark so he started
[16:22] his own he's something called This is
[16:24] angle and this is learning and he asked
[16:26] me like if I want to join as a writer
[16:29] like yeah sure why not with him and
[16:31] there were more people already on board
[16:33] here so for year I was and that was time
[16:36] like around 2020 yeah 2019 I become a
[16:39] Google developer expert and 2020 I was
[16:41] exploring through I was like actively
[16:43] writing and then there was a time that
[16:45] someone tried to bully me the conference
[16:48] organizer from India he bullied me on
[16:51] and then I decided to take a break
[16:53] because other thing was just to quit
[16:55] really quit but yeah a lot of people
[16:57] spoke to me they convinced me not to do
[16:58] this so I decided to take a break and
[17:01] after three months break and then came
[17:02] back with my own show called this Tech
[17:05] talk to SOS we ended up doing that for a
[17:07] year and then of course there was
[17:09] because I was doing four episodes every
[17:12] month yeah so I thought you said you
[17:14] were saying four episode per week and I
[17:17] said
[17:18] no that's not possible used do one
[17:21] episode per week and live stream so that
[17:24] that was live stream and then I ended up
[17:26] doing one for a year and then I got run
[17:27] out again so I was like okay what should
[17:29] I do as put to one of my friend he
[17:31] suggested why not to join hands with
[17:34] because he cannot scale SC these two
[17:36] lasts cuz he was already doing this is
[17:37] learning so I like heyas what do you
[17:39] think be is just merge my show that t
[17:42] talk with s with this is learning and
[17:44] then we do something new and involve
[17:46] more so he said why not you joining as a
[17:49] co-founder and then we take it forward
[17:51] so they okay sounds like put again so
[17:54] 2021 I joined as a co-founder so before
[17:57] that like we just and application this
[18:00] is learning and system is on to so
[18:03] everyone is free to join and they just
[18:04] need to in case someone wants to join
[18:06] just me DM on LinkedIn or Twitter and
[18:09] then we cannot board you and then this
[18:12] is learning is the community number one
[18:14] and then
[18:16] angular the commun name is this is
[18:18] learning but this is angular is part of
[18:21] it okay okay okay so as a publication we
[18:25] have kept it separate so you will find
[18:27] two Publications on
[18:29] this is learning and this
[18:31] is but this is learning is more about
[18:33] for any technology like in case you want
[18:36] to write
[18:38] react Cloud anything and this is angler
[18:40] is more specific to Ang because as said
[18:43] both developers so we wanted to take
[18:45] that forward and then when I joined we
[18:49] decided to start our own show so being
[18:51] said okay let's merge this is Tech tox
[18:54] and this is learning so we came up with
[18:55] this is Tech tox so we have been doing
[18:57] it for 3 years now we just released our
[19:00] 54th episode this last
[19:03] week this year we decided to take a
[19:05] different part we said okay let's record
[19:07] it previously it was live stream so we
[19:10] had to actually be available at the same
[19:12] time we said okay let's move to recorded
[19:15] one we hired an editor and then we
[19:17] record podcast and then published two
[19:19] episodes per month we slowed down we
[19:21] said no four was to month earlier now
[19:24] let's come back and let C down little
[19:27] bit and then we we keep rotating our
[19:30] post let's say we have three three host
[19:33] like me last and then J Jay is from
[19:36] Canada so with have already there and
[19:39] then sometime we got a new post boys
[19:42] from Canada yeah we sometime like four
[19:45] all four are but sometime say and the
[19:48] only one or J and me one we do this like
[19:51] podcast every week we record then of
[19:54] course we publish but apart from that we
[19:56] are as I said we are planning this
[19:58] conference and we have some courses open
[20:01] courses available on our K depository
[20:04] I'll share the link with tic in the
[20:07] notes and like anyone is free to join
[20:10] and upate those courses in case they
[20:12] think it's valuable and then of course
[20:14] we have a lot of writers R carne from
[20:17] solid CHS the creator of solid he is
[20:19] also one of the writer writer I don't
[20:21] know how last got him to write for this
[20:24] learning but that was great because it
[20:26] gives us lot of
[20:27] visibility and
[20:29] like ran is also like big advocate for
[20:31] open learning and I think that's why he
[20:33] joined us to make sure like his all his
[20:35] content are AV for free because he's
[20:37] also not big fan it's like for of medium
[20:40] but and then of course we are growing we
[20:42] have more than 130 writers I think
[20:44] that's that's the last time what we saw
[20:47] and doing this conference probably we do
[20:49] more virtual conference watch and who
[20:52] can join your writing team anybody or
[20:55] any anyone we don't you can actually you
[20:58] can write whatever you want in case you
[21:00] want to write some critic about
[21:02] something feel free to that because we
[21:05] believe everyone has their thoughts to
[21:07] share about and that should not be
[21:09] censored I would say I know somebody who
[21:12] his name is dersi and he's been writing
[21:14] really good articles and I write
[21:16] non-technical article but it's still
[21:19] very technical but not coding syntax but
[21:22] talking about how to build project how
[21:24] to design a project how to do all that
[21:28] thing
[21:29] so I would be interested in doing that
[21:31] writing for you guys yeah sure as a this
[21:34] is learning is more about learning right
[21:36] it's all it doesn't need to be code feel
[21:40] free to just message me and you as an
[21:42] author and unod on okay and let's spend
[21:47] few minutes about the conference as well
[21:49] so you said you're organizing a
[21:51] conference is that inperson virtual what
[21:54] is it uh virtual for sure because we
[21:57] have to conf
[21:59] all around the world so we thought of
[22:01] doing this conference so we can give
[22:02] chance to first time speakers so that's
[22:06] what that was the idea before this even
[22:09] so we are not looking at any sponsors or
[22:11] anything because M just for virtual con
[22:14] I there are of course there are
[22:16] investment but limited so we thought of
[22:18] like just managing and on own and uh we
[22:22] we that's why we are doing it in two
[22:23] days May 15th and 16th so we can cover
[22:27] most of the time zone let's see how it
[22:28] goes I'm little scared because we
[22:31] already have around close to 100
[22:34] talks if we cannot select 100 talks
[22:36] right but there there are some great
[22:38] talk so let's see how we can pick
[22:41] up speaking talk you gave a 13 uh talk
[22:46] last
[22:47] year how the two-part how did you get
[22:52] those 13 talks and how did you prepare
[22:55] your mind to give those talk I I I don't
[22:58] know if you'd been doing this for some
[23:00] long time or I'm sure there were
[23:03] initially there was some mental
[23:05] preparation to go face
[23:08] audience of course that is so I started
[23:10] giving talks in 2019 but recently ononis
[23:14] I shared this blog or we I just had a
[23:17] interview with one of my editor from
[23:19] sanis so how we how I started actually
[23:22] public speaking I can share the link you
[23:24] can plug in but and just tell you a
[23:25] little bit about it so of course I I was
[23:28] always scared to speak to people so it's
[23:30] not like it came naturally and when I
[23:33] was doing I was working the at the
[23:34] startups I started as senior engineer
[23:36] and then of course I became a team lead
[23:38] and then I was managing multiple teams
[23:40] and that was the time I was little bit
[23:42] frustrated I would say because coding is
[23:44] my first love I came back to cing I from
[23:46] manager I just gave up and then came
[23:49] back to i z so I was thinking like how
[23:52] can I keep myself updated and that's
[23:54] where I started doing internal some
[23:56] sessions right talking about net that
[23:58] was the time time when silver light came
[23:59] I was doing some silver light even
[24:01] different topics I started doing that
[24:03] and then it gave me a little bit
[24:04] confidence that I can speak in front of
[24:06] people and of course managing people of
[24:09] course that's a huge thing right in case
[24:11] you are introvert it just sucks
[24:14] basically yeah because as a manager you
[24:17] you need to have some very hard talk
[24:20] which you not comfortable with right and
[24:22] so I that gave me a little bit
[24:25] confidence and then when I moved to Pune
[24:26] I started teing I'm I was teaching at
[24:29] one of the Institute and then I started
[24:31] doing online thing as well and then I
[24:35] was building a confidence and then 2019
[24:38] I remember like when I started
[24:39] contributing to a and people started
[24:41] recognizing me that okay this guy is
[24:43] doing something for angular and there
[24:45] was a message from my friend from Sri
[24:49] Lanka he was organizing Sanka and he
[24:52] posted he's looking for speakers and I
[24:54] like hey I would like to give up this
[24:56] talk and then he said yeah sure come in
[24:59] and that was just like okay that
[25:02] happened and then when I went there of
[25:04] course there were three people so I was
[25:06] scared my first talk I still watch it
[25:08] andly what the hell I was so scared and
[25:10] then I came back and then I spoke to
[25:12] some people um I spoke to Sam saman from
[25:15] he used to work for o he was the def
[25:17] manager because he was also from mang
[25:20] community and we good friend so I spoke
[25:23] to him I think that was the time I came
[25:25] back and he wrote A Blog like how to
[25:28] give a presentation like to give a talk
[25:30] I was like wow this is interesting and
[25:33] him this is really what I needed because
[25:35] my first talk was like for me it was
[25:38] horrible and then I came back worked on
[25:41] things and then 2020 came I gave a conf
[25:45] I gave a talk at one of the conference
[25:46] in India on Ang that went well and then
[25:51] couldn't travel then I started giving
[25:53] all talks I think I've given more than
[25:54] 60 talks so far of course B in person
[25:58] and online as well and then when I mov
[26:01] to Germany I think so what the decision
[26:04] be behind moving to Germany was because
[26:06] I get access to so many countries I can
[26:07] travel without any reason and that
[26:10] worked so when I came here I think I
[26:13] started traveling in October 2022 my
[26:15] first talk was in us so I went to city
[26:19] anex was organizing their first
[26:20] conference in person conference after Co
[26:22] and then they invited me to speak there
[26:25] and my employer was very happy to let me
[26:27] do that I joined just honest like a
[26:30] month before MH I joined in August 2022
[26:33] and then September was when the
[26:35] conference was happening and then like
[26:36] yeah sure go ahead and then I started
[26:39] traveling more and getting into
[26:41] conferences I think there are two things
[26:43] which works for me basically because
[26:45] people know people know me so it makes
[26:48] things a bit easy yeah knowing of course
[26:51] organizers also works but of course the
[26:54] content is the key right so what I try
[26:56] to do at the end end of not the end of
[26:59] but the start of the year I decide these
[27:02] are the four talks which I want to give
[27:05] I don't like because I've done this that
[27:07] oh I I want to prepare a new talk every
[27:09] time it's not possible if you're giving
[27:11] 10 talks and then you looking for 10
[27:13] different topics M impossible you have
[27:16] full-time job and everything so I it's
[27:18] not chemical so I just decided I prepare
[27:22] for B and this start of the Year change
[27:24] things little bit based on the audience
[27:27] what helped me here is I also had a
[27:30] session with so GitHub start right
[27:32] GitHub gave us like a good session with
[27:35] one of the public
[27:37] speaking consultant so we also had this
[27:41] chat with them when things were online
[27:44] and they also like gave us some idea
[27:46] also had some session with Google Google
[27:49] gave us free some free session with the
[27:50] cult can help us improve our public
[27:53] speak and it helps literally help
[27:55] because it helped me clear my mind that
[27:58] how should I prepare my talk I don't
[27:59] have to look for me talk every time or
[28:01] how I can adjust my talk based on time
[28:04] because sometime your talk is 50 minutes
[28:07] but confidence gives you 20 minutes what
[28:09] should you do so those are the things
[28:12] which I learned from there and then I
[28:13] try to exist so let's say if I prepare
[28:16] four talks it depends like where I'm
[28:18] speaking what kind of audiences how much
[28:20] time I have and then
[28:24] I wow this was a Master Class on how to
[28:28] start building
[28:30] your presentation or a speaking
[28:34] engagement and you have a very practical
[28:37] Journey from your first few talks to
[28:42] where you are now 13 is speaking
[28:44] engagement last year it's still
[28:46] remarkable thank you for sharing all
[28:48] that now we talk about so many stuff one
[28:52] last question on these
[28:54] activity where do you see all the this
[28:58] is learning or your speaking engagement
[29:01] or your talk or or YouTube everything
[29:04] that you're doing on your side where do
[29:06] you see that in few years from now is
[29:09] there a revenue plan is there a business
[29:12] plan is there big picture that you're
[29:15] trying to work out no actually when I
[29:19] started I did that for many years I was
[29:22] teaching UL when I money and as I said I
[29:26] was time I was living
[29:28] you can plug in that story which I
[29:29] shared which but so I know like how it
[29:32] feels to not have money right dur my
[29:35] follow days I couldn't afford books I
[29:37] know like how it feels to not have
[29:39] anything accessible for free and when I
[29:42] started when I realized okay now I make
[29:45] enough money for myself I make okay
[29:47] let's stop this because now I have I can
[29:50] manage and I can give good time my
[29:52] family in whatever I learn so this is
[29:54] time to go back and give back to the
[29:55] commun this that was the whole idea in
[29:58] 2019 to start contributing to angular
[30:00] because I was looking for ways in which
[30:02] I can give back to the community because
[30:04] it made me made my life better I started
[30:06] teaching Ang I started making more I
[30:08] started I got a good job when I was in
[30:11] India and then I got a remote jobs of
[30:13] course that that happened later but by
[30:15] 2018 I was like settled down and 2019 I
[30:19] start contributing triangular started do
[30:21] talks and everything okay now you know
[30:24] that was the whole agenda that okay I
[30:26] want to give back in some ways possible
[30:29] so even I I launched a course in 2022 on
[30:33] Ang it's still available on free code
[30:35] cam I think it has more than 1 million
[30:37] views and it's 17 hours course which is
[30:40] fre of course I could have made money on
[30:42] that but that was the time okay no I
[30:45] don't want to do that uh the only thing
[30:48] is of course I want to do more but I
[30:51] have limited time and sometime it
[30:53] doesn't suit I'm still working on
[30:55] another course another for more than a
[30:57] year now but
[30:59] yeah the idea is of course whatever I do
[31:01] it should be available for free
[31:03] for I'm on a similar Journey where I
[31:05] have invested last 3 years most of the
[31:08] thing that I do is completely free
[31:10] that's how I want to keep but I also
[31:12] want to see how I can not do my
[31:15] full-time job and spend entire time here
[31:19] and so far the thought process is this
[31:22] that all my services will be free but
[31:25] when it comes to oneon-one time
[31:28] or deeper
[31:31] conversation that's when I will start
[31:33] charging money or when or maybe uh some
[31:37] kind of venture where I'm bringing
[31:39] people who want to develop has an idea
[31:42] and develop something and people who
[31:44] want to contribute some time and if I
[31:47] bring them together to build a new
[31:50] application or software or something and
[31:52] that's where I will find some angle some
[31:55] Revenue angle but truly our job give us
[31:57] so much
[31:58] that selling courses or something it's a
[32:01] tiny compared to what we get from our
[32:03] job so lot of people do ask me if I want
[32:05] to go sell something I never do that
[32:09] even like this one-onone I don't I'm not
[32:10] a big fan of doing those as well for
[32:12] many so I just I actually get DMs like
[32:16] sometime people asking for help like
[32:18] okay I see like how serious they are
[32:20] basically and then and just keep them
[32:22] Emil and schedu something but it really
[32:25] depends yeah I have to figure out that
[32:26] for myself that but 2 3 years from now
[32:29] looked like where I can take it to the
[32:32] next level where yeah all that I want to
[32:35] go back to your full-time job you moved
[32:39] to Germany 2 years
[32:41] ago how did you find this job is that
[32:44] the job you was working in India and mov
[32:46] through company or you found the job
[32:48] first and then mve to
[32:50] Germany India I was doing consulting so
[32:53] I was Consulting for two big companies
[32:55] and then it was already like around 20
[32:57] 20 already when Co thing was getting
[32:59] Wasing so of course I got scared because
[33:01] I don't have any B in my family so it's
[33:03] okay me and my wife and doct so I
[33:05] started thinking like what I should do
[33:07] next and then I decided okay I want to
[33:08] move away from India because of course
[33:11] pay those new taxes and then did nothing
[33:14] for free I mean then there was no future
[33:16] that's what I offense to anyone of
[33:18] course India is a great F I mean you can
[33:20] still make bettering in case you have
[33:22] family and friends or you can if you
[33:24] have exed family for sure but that was
[33:26] not the case in my situation so I
[33:30] started exploring Canada for some time
[33:32] and then I like okay uh let's reach out
[33:35] to one of my friend so I was working
[33:36] with him in 2020 so when I joined when I
[33:39] started working in more so he was the
[33:41] one who recommended me for a job he used
[33:44] to work from Hamburg and I work from
[33:46] India and then we left around the same
[33:48] time I started doing consulting he went
[33:50] to the job and then I reached up to him
[33:52] again thinking uh do you think you have
[33:54] anything when I can come back to Germany
[33:57] and work
[33:58] and he was nice enough to actually
[34:00] recommend me I came back to Germany but
[34:02] unfortunately things didn't fall out I
[34:04] left that job during my six months
[34:06] probation and I joined Tanis where I
[34:09] work now so wait you was in Germany
[34:13] before no I was not you said you come
[34:16] back to Germany so that's why I thought
[34:19] because he was in Germany and we were
[34:20] working
[34:22] together got it got it so when you was
[34:24] working for that company you found
[34:27] another
[34:28] job and this is what you
[34:32] found yeah things were complicated there
[34:35] they had no work no angle of work and
[34:37] yeah it was not working basically for
[34:39] both of us so I decided to qu and then
[34:42] it was probation period I had 6 months
[34:46] to tell them if I to work and then
[34:49] I and it was betterer and yeah there was
[34:54] the time I was struggling it was under
[34:56] depression and everything because I was
[34:58] alone in Germany my was back in India
[35:00] the company was not helping at all and
[35:03] those times when you are under dection
[35:05] you need someone to help you and then
[35:08] Lis came they helped me during process
[35:10] as well they were like pretty clear okay
[35:13] I can go back to India with my family
[35:15] and come back I can take my time off so
[35:17] I like those things they were taking the
[35:19] initiative from their side by just
[35:21] listening to what I'm saying it was not
[35:23] like no trust situation right yeah and
[35:27] when you go to us for a job you have to
[35:30] go through all these H1 process and all
[35:32] how does it work in Germany Germany has
[35:35] to something now blue card so they need
[35:37] SK workers JY has shortage of workers
[35:40] right so they started this blue card
[35:42] thing where you can come you can work
[35:44] for three years that then get get your
[35:46] PR and now they have changed the law
[35:49] within five years you can get a
[35:51] passport I see okay okay that's nice so
[35:55] it's easier than coming to us
[35:58] but the language matters right you have
[35:59] to learn the language in case you want
[36:01] to get a PR or if you want to get a
[36:02] citizenship you have to learn
[36:05] language all right last two questions on
[36:09] this part so you've been here for 2
[36:12] years what has worked for you in this
[36:15] job for you to grow and and do
[36:19] well the support from the my team
[36:22] members and like my manager deciding
[36:24] with with me because I was had for a
[36:26] different team M and that was the same
[36:29] time they were building this platform
[36:30] thing we use anx to like to have a mon
[36:35] so when I was had for UI Rec which which
[36:38] was building all everything right so has
[36:42] its own design system and then we have
[36:44] our
[36:45] own but I'm so grateful to um my manager
[36:49] he used to be my manager now he to
[36:51] another team but we still interact
[36:53] because we end and still helping that
[36:57] team in case there was something which
[36:59] needs to be so he said okay let's put
[37:02] SOS into this team and then but to beig
[37:05] team leate he was like he said probably
[37:08] SOS will run away in case we put him in
[37:10] this thing okay fine but that was the
[37:13] differ but yeah he was he said okay
[37:16] let's move him into this time team
[37:18] because we need some NX skills and
[37:21] someone was on large scale application
[37:24] and then I spoke to my colleague who
[37:26] works from and then I spoke to him very
[37:29] openly that look I'm just coming out of
[37:31] depression so don't expect lot of things
[37:33] from me and he was like no worries take
[37:35] your time take your time to settle down
[37:37] we are not in rush and that was the
[37:39] whole culture it was not like there was
[37:41] a push coming from the manager that you
[37:42] have to do this everyone was like pretty
[37:45] okay yeah go with your own pace it's not
[37:47] like we going to push you which was
[37:49] different previously and then I really
[37:52] realize that this team really cares
[37:54] about you as well as a person not only
[37:56] your work
[37:58] and slowly of course I started the
[38:00] started interacting with four teams so
[38:03] we have like more than 4 inter
[38:04] developers contributing to our
[38:06] repository or interacting with everyone
[38:09] and I think when I started speaking to
[38:11] people they also realized that okay this
[38:13] person really knows what he's doing so
[38:15] getting that response back that they
[38:17] also recognize that okay what you have
[38:19] been doing is good that also gives them
[38:22] level of satisfaction because I'm not
[38:24] here for money for sure money is
[38:26] necessary but I what I'm making is
[38:28] enough what really matters to me is
[38:30] having good colleagues or good people to
[38:33] work with and is working for me because
[38:35] I really had this promotion cycle I
[38:37] don't care about how much I'm getting as
[38:40] a is but what I really care about is my
[38:42] birth as far as I'm enjoying my I'm
[38:44] doing right now and I'm okay and that's
[38:48] it I think having a great colleagues and
[38:50] getting recogniz from them that's awes
[38:55] man everything that you have shared
[38:56] today has it a lot of depth and the
[39:00] clarity that you have for yourself for
[39:03] me that's the highlight of this
[39:06] interview the actionable steps that you
[39:08] take the clarity that you have in your
[39:12] actions and thought process and uh where
[39:16] you're going right and why you're doing
[39:18] what you're doing so it's remarkable
[39:20] thank you so much for sharing that at
[39:22] some point I would I guess um it could
[39:25] be its own interview how how you grow
[39:28] yourself to a team leader and manager
[39:31] and then decided to become an indiv
[39:34] individual contributor so maybe that may
[39:37] take long time and know we are running
[39:40] behind so I would love to catch up on
[39:44] that as well you want to just let me
[39:49] okay if it is a uh a small answer then
[39:53] we can cover it here if not then we can
[39:55] do it in a separate one be quick and
[39:58] think we have
[39:59] already years right so I think that
[40:01] happened during so I started as senior
[40:04] engineer right so when I was working for
[40:06] that startup and there was a lot of
[40:07] opportunity to grow so like I started sh
[40:11] the my intent that I want to grow here
[40:14] and then IND I became team lead and then
[40:17] I started leading support team because
[40:20] before that I was moved into another
[40:22] project which was very critical for us
[40:24] we wanted to deliver it within six
[40:25] months we did that and once project was
[40:27] done went BR they wanted someone who
[40:31] knows that said okay why don't you start
[40:33] leading this support F and then I like
[40:36] okay why not and that was the times I
[40:38] really wanted money right of course I
[40:40] need I wanted to make more and then that
[40:42] happened I became p l and then next year
[40:44] we got a new manager I really liked his
[40:47] way of working so I was like he came
[40:49] from I think of the company I don't
[40:51] remember the name but he came from Big
[40:53] organization he used to work in
[40:54] Netherland and then came back to India
[40:57] and I was like very impressed I still I
[41:00] I like I'm still in contact with him so
[41:02] I still grateful to him because you need
[41:05] be a better human being I was an IDI I
[41:08] would say that I was very short tampered
[41:11] and everything so if I have improved as
[41:14] a person than to him because that he was
[41:17] the one who showed me like how to work
[41:19] with people how to work in a team and it
[41:22] helped me like of course in Myer but
[41:24] yeah so I was inspired and then I'm like
[41:26] okay what become a manager
[41:28] so I started going became manager
[41:31] literally found that I'm Notting
[41:33] any I went again like why I started this
[41:37] thing I why I came into coding or why a
[41:39] software engineer and the answer was I I
[41:43] love to write code which like some
[41:46] people are using and then they saying
[41:48] Co then I said okay this is I think I
[41:52] asked late I didn't I told them I cannot
[41:56] handle this 23 big rtin because I want I
[41:59] love to write Bo so if you can do some
[42:01] restructure hire new folks and give me
[42:04] just four people I can do that
[42:07] but basically that was the time the
[42:10] things were like very bad there the
[42:12] environment was becoming toxic the new
[42:14] manager was like really horrible I can
[42:18] literally I don't say the bad words but
[42:20] I was like when I resigned there was
[42:22] only two options either I like go face
[42:25] either or I just hit him I will Shar him
[42:27] but I accept that so that was time and
[42:32] then of course I eventually left without
[42:34] hting him for sure and then went back
[42:37] and started giving interviews and then
[42:39] that was the finary is like how bad I am
[42:42] because I was getting is left right so
[42:44] people like oh you are a team you are a
[42:46] manager why why should we trust that you
[42:48] can write Cote and eventually this thing
[42:52] like I never wanted to move to pun that
[42:53] was not a plan to move to pun and I was
[42:56] giving interviews and then this thing
[42:58] happened in a day so it was like they
[43:01] they took my interview on Saturday and
[43:03] then within 3 hours like they sent me an
[43:05] offer letterer saying okay next week you
[43:07] can come to P because that was the time
[43:09] I took a job in Mumbai I left start and
[43:14] took a job in Mumbai but that was
[43:16] not and even it's not like in in my
[43:19] resume anymore that I work for that
[43:21] compy because it was just month one
[43:23] month I ran away I like okay when they
[43:26] sent me an offer as like yeah I'm coming
[43:28] to pun but give me three days because
[43:30] I'm supposed to get my paycheck and that
[43:33] was the first month so they gave me a
[43:34] check so it would take two three days to
[43:37] clear in your bank account right so I
[43:39] said okay give fourth fourth day I just
[43:42] wait okay bye-bye and I think grateful
[43:46] that happened because P gave me a lot of
[43:48] things that my my life literally took
[43:51] time came with open SS because I was in
[43:53] P I was having a lot of time I was
[43:56] teaching I because of time mbai is a
[44:00] city where you travel for four 4 hours a
[44:02] day how are you supposed to manage your
[44:04] work even if it just work think about
[44:07] for hour traveling it makes hour and
[44:10] you're done in Mumbai for 2016 and then
[44:14] more in 2016 awesome thank you so let's
[44:17] go to our last three
[44:19] questions with everything that you have
[44:21] shared anything that you want to add
[44:24] that I did not ask yeah apart from of
[44:27] course if you want to
[44:29] become in becoming a GD or become a feel
[44:34] free to send me a message like we
[44:36] can schedule some calls and see
[44:41] things perfect and then do you have any
[44:44] question for
[44:45] me uh I'm not a question but thank thank
[44:48] you for doing this I saw the peek which
[44:50] you mentioned where you been working
[44:52] with some people to get into Tech so
[44:55] thank you for do that as I said me and
[44:56] my uh co-founder we both have big fan of
[45:00] open learning and open source and then
[45:01] you're doing something that's that's
[45:04] great I will connect you with uh
[45:06] somebody named anush he's Al he and his
[45:09] partner is also doing something similar
[45:11] I will connect you there and the last
[45:14] question what's your message to the
[45:18] audience uh one thing which I have
[45:20] learned from my journey so far is not to
[45:22] give up if there are bad times good
[45:24] times just think just just try giving
[45:27] your best and good things will happen
[45:29] thank you so much Santos for this
[45:31] interview I really learned a lot about
[45:36] you as a person and I have this intense
[45:39] feeling of becoming your friend I will
[45:42] try my best to not lose this connection
[45:46] ever so I felt like I know you for a
[45:48] long time and will build upon it so
[45:51] thank you so much for that thank for the
[45:54] opportunity I really love talking to you
[45:56] and yeah L's s touch that's