Lawrence Lockhart Jr. Developer Advocate at Vaadin

[0:00] hello welcome and Namaste thank you so
[0:02] much Lawrence for accepting being my
[0:05] guest at ker Journey podcast Lawrence
[0:08] and I know each other for about two
[0:11] years now I have met Lawrence in many
[0:14] spaces and every time Lawrence say
[0:17] something it's the gems that comes out
[0:21] from his mouth now lot of experience his
[0:25] journey to get into Tech is tremendous
[0:29] and a inspiration to many people who is
[0:32] trying to do the same so with that
[0:35] Lawrence I want to hand over Mike to you
[0:38] please tell what you do and how is your
[0:42] typical day and week look like sure
[0:46] thanks for having me on ban thank you
[0:48] for the invite that introduction I'm
[0:50] overwhelmed I'm like who is that guy he
[0:51] sounds so nice I want to meet him but
[0:54] yeah thank you for that and as you
[0:55] mentioned we have interacted on Twitter
[0:57] spaces for a couple years now and I
[0:59] definitely value all the wisdom you give
[1:01] you give what I like to call a measured
[1:03] wisdom so I think there's many
[1:04] opportunities you could say more but it
[1:06] would not be the appropriate answer for
[1:09] the question and you give what is
[1:10] appropriate I always love that from you
[1:12] so as to me I am a developer Advocate at
[1:15] voden boned is a finish company uh with
[1:18] an online press in the US as well uh we
[1:21] are a Java shop as I like to call it we
[1:23] build amazing solutions for Java based
[1:26] web developers and web teams to
[1:29] framework set of web components and just
[1:32] pulling it all together so that's been a
[1:34] lot of fun I've been there since August
[1:35] of last year slowly coming up to my
[1:38] oneyear anniversary as a devil as we
[1:40] call it or a Dev avocado Dev developer
[1:43] Advocate and that's really exciting you
[1:45] asked about typical day and week I think
[1:48] I can go on into that as well there is
[1:51] definitely without question no typical
[1:53] day or week so one thing you'll find and
[1:56] I learned this when I was first
[1:58] investigating the role of developer
[2:00] advocacy is every company handles it
[2:02] different it is a role that is not
[2:05] really standardized it's not like you
[2:07] can go into college and major in the
[2:09] Devo right you might major in computer
[2:11] science and become a developer or some
[2:13] sort of computer scientist but there's
[2:15] no major for developer advocacy because
[2:17] it's really
[2:18] cross-discipline and what we're finding
[2:20] now is many companies as they find their
[2:23] way into do we need developer Advocates
[2:26] if so why and what function do we want
[2:27] them to serve each company Handles in a
[2:30] different way even in my path to
[2:32] becoming a devel with thoughted VA a in
[2:35] have to plug that part of my job I
[2:38] learned that in some companies for
[2:39] instance they'll have developer
[2:40] Advocates who are very narrowly task
[2:44] focused so you might have these two
[2:46] people who only do the conference talks
[2:48] and these two are three who only do the
[2:50] technical writing and this one is all
[2:51] social media then you have others where
[2:54] it's more of a blend so where I work
[2:55] it's more of a blend and my activities
[2:58] may include conference talks Meetup
[3:00] talks short form video long form video
[3:04] social media that will be our company
[3:06] Twitter our company LinkedIn a company I
[3:09] don't do anything on the Instagram and
[3:10] Facebook I denied that like no I'm not
[3:12] going on Facebook but the company
[3:14] Twitter the company Instagram the
[3:16] company excuse me company uh LinkedIn as
[3:18] well as our company LinkedIn um private
[3:21] groups we have a private group that's
[3:22] more of like a forum so interacting in
[3:24] all those places as well as our
[3:26] discourse so we had a Discord that is
[3:29] now a discourse
[3:30] and one of the things that developer
[3:31] Advocates do in my job is engage in the
[3:33] conversations because that's really what
[3:35] the role is about it's about advocating
[3:38] I got F two sides of the same coin so
[3:41] you Advocate obviously for your company
[3:43] two developers in the field right there
[3:45] there's no secret about that we want you
[3:46] to know who we are where we work in why
[3:49] our products and services are the best
[3:51] things in slice bread but very important
[3:53] in one way that separates us from BL
[3:56] marketing or sales is we are very
[3:58] interested we are deeply invested in how
[4:02] are people actually receiving our
[4:04] solution are our Solutions actually
[4:06] solving problems in the field well and
[4:09] very well best of class because if
[4:11] they're not we're the ones devels who
[4:13] get that feedback and that feedback
[4:15] might be in a a comment on Twitter I
[4:18] literally I cringed a little bit just
[4:19] before I got this job someone was just
[4:21] reiling on something about PayPal and I
[4:23] had two or three F friends who worked at
[4:25] PayPal in developer advocacy of like oh
[4:27] gosh is that what it's like but at the
[4:29] same time okay and we'll get into this
[4:30] later I'm sure having the customer
[4:33] facing background that I have in the
[4:34] restaurant industry I'm used to
[4:36] complaints I'm used to when things go
[4:38] well how to manage state things like
[4:40] that and so yes we receive that feedback
[4:43] U via comments on Twitter or LinkedIn in
[4:46] our discourse which is a forum in
[4:48] conferences meetups things like that and
[4:50] we then take that back to product
[4:53] engineering so we represent the company
[4:55] to the world the world of developers and
[4:58] we represent we truly repr the world of
[5:00] developers back to the C which means
[5:03] having that trust factor is super super
[5:05] important think you and anybody else who
[5:08] watches this knows that developers don't
[5:09] like to be sold to period even when they
[5:12] have to buy something they don't want to
[5:13] be sold to but they will listen to a
[5:15] recommendation from a trusted friend and
[5:18] so as best as I can and this go back to
[5:21] everything I always said on Twitter
[5:22] spaces about just being a decent person
[5:24] I try to become a trusted friend a
[5:26] person that when he speaks just like you
[5:28] mentioned earlier it's Fairly reliable
[5:30] he probably knows what he's talking
[5:32] about even if it's an area that I
[5:33] haven't touched before so that when I
[5:35] make a recommendation I'm not
[5:36] immediately shut off because oh it
[5:38] sounds like you're
[5:39] selling that being said to your actual
[5:43] question my typical day let's say say
[5:45] for restance today was my context which
[5:47] day I said I'm going to do all social
[5:49] and vide type content prior to lunch I'm
[5:52] going to do this podcast at lunch then
[5:55] the remainder of the day I'll work on a
[5:57] conference talk so there's a big job
[5:59] conference humongous Java conference
[6:01] that I'm so blessed and happy to be
[6:03] speaking at is called Dev Nexus it's in
[6:06] Atlanta Georgia in exactly two weeks
[6:09] just under two weeks huge conference
[6:11] still just amazed and thankful that I
[6:14] was able to have my cfp accepted and I
[6:16] could talk a little bit about that more
[6:18] too hope you're making notes anyway I'm
[6:20] speaking there this is huge this is big
[6:22] this could literally make or break
[6:23] careers and my cfp was accepted is I
[6:25] have a project that I'll use to demo my
[6:28] code I also have my slide
[6:30] but there's just a little Tweaky on
[6:32] devoting all the afternoon to just
[6:33] focused work just doing that see what
[6:36] else need do on the project making sure
[6:38] all I'm going to have my last slide in
[6:41] my um presentation is going to be a
[6:43] barcode but not to any of my socials or
[6:44] anything I me literally a barcode to my
[6:46] GitHub because I am highly invested in
[6:48] getting the developers who are there to
[6:50] think what I'm showing is cool and they
[6:53] want to try it and I want them to scan
[6:55] that and go right to my GitHub be able
[6:56] to Fork it clone it down spin it up and
[6:59] then start playing with it and breaking
[7:00] stuff like that so have some tweaks to
[7:02] me uh this won't be a practice day
[7:04] probably Monday and obiously Sunday
[7:07] afternoon if we be Hest practice day
[7:09] because I want to review this again with
[7:10] my boss on Tuesday but this afternoon is
[7:13] strictly focused work on slides of the
[7:16] project this morning was more social
[7:18] media I was on my personal Twitter on
[7:20] our company Twitter on our company
[7:22] LinkedIn liking things reposting things
[7:25] interacting with Community reading
[7:26] through some of the questions on our
[7:28] Forum our discourse sport Forum picking
[7:30] the so once a week I like to feature we
[7:33] have an I made this so we like to
[7:35] feature one of those I made this from
[7:36] The Forum on our Twitter and Le did
[7:38] bridging those communities together so I
[7:40] was reading through trying to find the
[7:42] next thing I want to feature on Twitter
[7:43] and Le de from our Forum because not
[7:46] everyone on Twitter is on the Forum not
[7:48] everyone's on Forum on the Twitter so I
[7:49] blend them together whether they want to
[7:50] be or not I'm like you're going to see
[7:52] this good stuff so reading that so
[7:54] that's just today any other day it might
[7:56] be hey I have a Blog poster this week
[7:58] and it's Monday I have my idea or I need
[8:00] at least an outline and some M points
[8:03] and I do it like that and so at any
[8:05] given time in a role like I have where
[8:07] you have multiple responsibilities and I
[8:10] did struggle with this for about a
[8:12] couple of months you have to be able to
[8:15] manage shortterm and longterm very well
[8:17] like very well or you will just get lost
[8:19] in the weeks so the way that we and many
[8:22] companies do devil in our responsibility
[8:24] mix is so different from being a
[8:26] developer so prior to coming divided I
[8:28] was a software developer fullstack
[8:30] developer working for FedEx Services
[8:32] here in Memphis we have features we have
[8:36] stories we have Sprints Sprints are
[8:38] every two weeks within those Sprints you
[8:40] get stories those stories have a certain
[8:42] number of story points and we keep them
[8:45] within a certain range to make sure you
[8:46] can get your work done in two weeks it's
[8:49] exceptionally regimented exceptionally
[8:51] regimented and being a place like FedEx
[8:54] which is a little older and technically
[8:57] not a tech company it's actually a
[8:58] logistics firm with a lot of tech
[9:00] involved it is almost like government
[9:02] everything is 1 2 3 a BC and it's easy
[9:06] to place yourself in a nice steady
[9:08] regimen because it's handed to you and I
[9:11] did that for four years then I come into
[9:14] devil where all of that structure at
[9:16] least the majority of it just goes away
[9:19] and there's just a cloud of
[9:20] responsibilities this is doing two days
[9:23] that's doing a week this talk is in a
[9:26] month I could start it now or I could
[9:27] start it like if this is some cloud and
[9:30] I struggled with that until I started
[9:31] using my whiteboard which I can't show
[9:33] you right now but I promise you I have a
[9:35] whiteboard on here and it's so simple
[9:37] because I've tried notion and all the
[9:39] digital none of that works for me for my
[9:41] brain on this whiteboard I have one
[9:44] column that says today it is absolutely
[9:47] what I have to do today the absolutes
[9:50] next week me next column says this week
[9:52] it is everything that must happen this
[9:55] week next one says long term these are
[9:58] things that don't fall within today or
[10:00] the week they are coming up if I have
[10:03] time I can squeeze them in if I don't
[10:05] have time I don't have to stress nor
[10:07] think about it because I'm bad about
[10:09] thinking about all the things that once
[10:11] overstressing myself and getting into
[10:14] kind of analysis paralyses this gets it
[10:16] out of my brain and on somewhere where
[10:19] every night I review it once and make
[10:22] sure I've checked off my things for the
[10:23] day if I have it it gets roll over to
[10:25] the next day with a star because now
[10:26] this is high priority that was a
[10:28] yesterday thing and I move the this week
[10:32] things over to the today that I want to
[10:34] get done tomorrow that's my entire
[10:36] system it works like a charm but not it
[10:39] is so simple it is so reliable don't
[10:41] have to log in I'm not using devices
[10:43] it's easily visible can't miss it and
[10:46] that helps me to manage my average day
[10:49] which may involve any number of
[10:51] activities hope that kind of answer the
[10:53] question that was about 20 minutes of
[10:56] answers yes analog
[10:59] probably a reflection of my age as well
[11:01] there's a message there there's a
[11:03] message there that sometimes when we
[11:05] seek solutions for things in our lives
[11:08] you have to take into context the person
[11:11] life that's giving the answer to you and
[11:13] if someone says the absolute best way
[11:15] for productivity is notion or this or
[11:17] that or even Pomodoro sometimes Pomodoro
[11:20] is the worst thing that I could possibly
[11:22] do because I've gone by 25 minutes but
[11:24] I'm now in a Zone the worst thing I can
[11:26] possibly do is break it up and then have
[11:28] to get back into the Zone like I need to
[11:30] just keep going if I'm in the zone don't
[11:31] bother me so sometimes Pomodoro is the
[11:34] worst solution so you have to take
[11:36] advice Solutions about career about life
[11:38] about family take advice you get into
[11:41] context how does the advice given and
[11:43] the person giving it relate to who I am
[11:46] and where I am another easy example I
[11:47] remember shortly after boot camp just oh
[11:51] this was shortly before my coding boot
[11:52] camp I went to a boot camp called launch
[11:53] code shortly before that I remember how
[11:56] much advice I heard about how to master
[11:58] data search or algorithm type interviews
[12:01] over again I just came hearing le le
[12:03] that's all I heard and cracking the
[12:05] coding interview book and it took me
[12:08] almost six months but not to realize
[12:10] that's an effective strategy for people
[12:13] who have already taken a course in
[12:15] college in data structures and
[12:17] algorithms or one or two courses they
[12:20] have the requisite knowledge already and
[12:22] then Le Cod just becomes the repetition
[12:24] the practice is getting the Reps in but
[12:27] if you haven't had the course and your
[12:29] boot camp didn't go deep dive into tries
[12:32] or trees or any of that right you have
[12:34] no idea napsack you have no idea what
[12:37] any of these things are and then you
[12:39] immediately go and you try an easy and
[12:41] you're blown away and you think you
[12:42] don't know how to code and I should just
[12:44] give up no you're missing the requisite
[12:46] knowledge which means the advice you're
[12:48] given wasn't bad advice it just didn't
[12:50] match you where you are so that's the
[12:52] first step in receiving advice from
[12:54] anyone even me analyze the advice coming
[12:57] in and then go from there I've answered
[13:01] like three questions you didn't ask I'm
[13:02] going to just stop talking I just enjoy
[13:04] talking to you you have a pleasant face
[13:06] you're nodding and agree with me it's
[13:07] hard to stop but I'm gonna stop there
[13:11] bre this was awesome this is this was
[13:14] awesome I knew you saying you took a
[13:15] long time but you covered so much
[13:18] information I want to acknowledge I also
[13:20] have a whiteboard here it works some of
[13:24] the big thing that I want to achieve by
[13:26] q1 some of them are achieved some of
[13:28] them or not where I manage thing is each
[13:31] quarter I set some goals where I
[13:35] intentionally decide that out of 100
[13:37] thing that I want to do I will focus on
[13:39] these two things or three things and
[13:42] under those I Define exact outcome exact
[13:46] action and outcome that I I'm
[13:49] anticipating and then that allow me to
[13:53] avoid 10 other thing that I want to do
[13:55] because I am somebody who go after shiny
[13:58] objects
[14:00] and I've been using the system for
[14:03] almost two and a half years now and
[14:06] that's my mechanism to hold myself
[14:09] accountable stick to few things yeah and
[14:13] not start new project every once in a
[14:16] while so I do that and then you were
[14:19] saying you have today this week and
[14:24] longterm and in my case longterm is the
[14:26] quarterly goals right and I can I can
[14:29] actually see how it is working for you
[14:32] and how the whole system is working
[14:35] because in my case today this weekend
[14:37] quarterly goal is what I also go for
[14:41] nice I know I like you for a reason
[14:45] see so another thing that you covered
[14:48] for us is the deell
[14:51] role I have observed and even in my
[14:55] friend Circle there is so much confusion
[14:58] about what this role is and especially
[15:01] developers have
[15:03] seen either confusion or humor or some
[15:08] not so much appreciation because they
[15:11] don't understand and what you just
[15:13] shared is almost like a master class of
[15:16] exactly what Dev Ro is covering from a
[15:20] conference call videoos social media
[15:23] Chad and lastly you said you're are an
[15:26] advocate for company an advocate for Dev
[15:29] ER and how it is different from a
[15:31] typical marketing roles so yeah I I say
[15:35] all the time and I think I say this on a
[15:37] recent Twitter space is literally one of
[15:38] the strangest roles within the world of
[15:40] tech and anyone who thinks they want to
[15:42] do this you're weird you're officially
[15:44] weird I'm telling you now I acknowledge
[15:47] it because it's so you can literally
[15:50] find companies where the engineers just
[15:53] do not like the developer advocus they
[15:55] don't like them at all because in some
[15:57] cases they may be very they may be
[15:59] getting a lot of shine and praise and
[16:01] accolades in some cases there's some
[16:04] nice travel perhaps international travel
[16:07] and they're showing the Instagram
[16:09] pictures I'm in Europe I'm in Belgium
[16:11] I'm in Nigeria I'm in Australia
[16:13] meanwhile the engineers are back home in
[16:16] Ohio or Mississippi writing all the code
[16:20] and with no accolades like no and people
[16:23] miss that so there's in some cases
[16:25] there's some mixed feelings about why do
[16:26] we have these people and why do they get
[16:28] to do this and that they may or may not
[16:30] even be contributing code which I'm so
[16:32] happy with my team in Boden all of my
[16:34] all the developer Advocates are solid
[16:37] top-notch Engineers you can see them
[16:39] still making pull requests on our open
[16:41] source software getting into the weeds
[16:43] deeply I think that's sometimes a
[16:45] question like can they really code or
[16:47] are they actually technical all of the
[16:48] people all the and even people in
[16:50] product they're like they're just
[16:51] Engineers everywhere um and so that's a
[16:54] good thing but it's an interesting role
[16:56] it's interesting role and it to do it
[16:58] you have to a know that your company
[17:01] knows why they have the role in the
[17:03] first place and so I am so happy shortly
[17:06] after I started me let me put a pin
[17:08] there around when I started it was
[17:10] interesting that Brian Douglas left
[17:13] developer advocacy and I look up to him
[17:15] like that's the guy Brian Douglas he
[17:17] left devell and he's doing his own thing
[17:19] very well with open songs then another
[17:21] young lady I really expect respect her
[17:23] name is Ali Diamond she was a developer
[17:26] Advocate she left devell for good and
[17:28] made a whole video why I left devil all
[17:30] this is happening right when I'm coming
[17:32] in I'm like no wait but their reasons
[17:34] were valid and they had their own
[17:36] reasons again knowing yourself and what
[17:37] you're interested in what your company
[17:39] trying to ask you to do so the the first
[17:41] step in getting in Devo is knowing that
[17:43] the company knows why they have it and
[17:46] their reasons and their expectations of
[17:48] you match what you want from it that is
[17:51] so important if you don't have that
[17:52] match do not go forward there's no
[17:54] amount of money that will pay for a
[17:57] disconnect in understanding from the
[17:58] they would or the company looking for
[18:00] from you and what you're looking for
[18:02] from them are they just needing just a
[18:04] popular face are they needing just more
[18:07] customers than you're lar here this
[18:09] product or are they wanting that trusted
[18:11] advisor which I think is the nicest
[18:13] Niche the trusted advisor who's already
[18:16] existing in enough Tech communities to
[18:18] be of influence to be trustworthy and to
[18:21] be able to bring back feedback right
[18:23] that's a nice mix so that's the first
[18:25] thing and then making sure your own um
[18:29] impressions of developer advocacy and
[18:31] Dev in general do they match what you're
[18:33] likely about to do because again
[18:36] sometimes it's the shiny parts we see
[18:37] all the time person and I'm even guilty
[18:39] taking my first trip to Europe ever
[18:42] earlier this year my company's di just
[18:43] going to headquarters for a big all head
[18:45] that was a big deal to me I was on
[18:47] Instagram and Twitter and Tik Tok that
[18:49] was my entire life for a week Lawrence
[18:50] is in Europe that looks really cool and
[18:53] it is cool and it was on their dime they
[18:54] paid for everything of course we love
[18:56] that but that's not the job that's not
[18:59] that's not every day that was one tiny
[19:01] piece the actual job is I have to dig
[19:04] deeper into these docks so I can be more
[19:06] make a bigger impression in my
[19:08] presentation I don't look like just some
[19:11] bum with code trying to get you to get
[19:13] some open source software you don't need
[19:14] I need to make an impression I need to
[19:16] get deeper into the box I need to see
[19:18] what the the technical capabilities of
[19:20] our Java Frameworks are and push it to
[19:22] the Limit find out one of those wild
[19:23] moment that takes time that take deep
[19:26] thinking and trying things and breaking
[19:28] things and asking I'm looking at slack
[19:30] for some reason asking questions on
[19:31] slack from the engineers and the
[19:33] products so there is work involved you
[19:35] just want to make sure that when you get
[19:37] ready to sign up for this or even
[19:38] interview for it that your expectation
[19:41] company expectations are a match because
[19:44] again it's an unre unregulated role
[19:46] industry but there there's no major for
[19:48] it there is no standardized curriculum
[19:50] think the closest thing we have is
[19:52] probably Mary thing fall thing Balls
[19:54] book the value of developer relation
[19:56] excellent book every once you get it
[19:58] it's like our Bible but even that not
[20:00] every company's follow that's just her
[20:01] individual book not every not every
[20:03] company follows that thought process
[20:05] really important those initial
[20:06] interviews behavioral interviews when
[20:08] they're asking you to tell them tell you
[20:09] about themselves you should probably get
[20:11] them to tell them about themselves as
[20:12] well and see does it match the marketing
[20:14] materials in the website the things that
[20:16] you've looked
[20:17] up I guess 10 years ago there was a role
[20:20] I'm sure it do still exist it it was
[20:22] called solution architect solution
[20:25] engineer and those are the people who
[20:27] would go with marketing people when they
[20:29] are in the final stage of contract
[20:32] negotiation or sell where the solution
[20:35] engineer will go and talk more about the
[20:37] product they know in and out about the
[20:40] software or the application or solution
[20:43] while the marketing people have a very
[20:45] high level knowledge so they typically
[20:48] go together in the final stage of
[20:51] selling where customer can get more
[20:54] inside and maybe a prototype with them
[20:57] so that role exists I don't know how
[20:59] much overlap is there between Dev roles
[21:02] and the solution engineer role yeah I
[21:05] think if you took Solutions engineer
[21:08] marketer a little bit of sales little
[21:11] bit of engineer and Tech educator that's
[21:15] a big one and just you smooshed it all
[21:19] into one that would be the closest thing
[21:21] to what most companies are asking for
[21:24] from Devo I have to be really careful
[21:26] when I say that most companies not all
[21:28] every does it differently but where I
[21:30] work in a couple places I've interviewed
[21:32] that would be the closest thing because
[21:34] you are there to be the more technical
[21:35] person like even in the booths like the
[21:37] last conference I went to connect Tech
[21:39] in Atlanta in October we had Marketing
[21:42] sales folks that we had me and so they
[21:44] were bringing the business aspect out of
[21:46] it I was getting into the deep details
[21:47] and I would go into the demo and open up
[21:49] intell and talk through the code so I
[21:51] was very much in the solutions engineer
[21:53] type hat or roll but at the same time I
[21:56] also did the conference talk right full
[21:58] conference talk on AI and Link Chain 4J
[22:01] and using bot to find all that together
[22:03] which you might not find from a solu
[22:04] engineer you might find more from a tech
[22:06] evangelist or a tech educator so it's
[22:09] literally three or four roles all
[22:11] switched into one I like to do different
[22:13] things so I actually like that the
[22:15] contact switching can be challenging but
[22:17] the variety I I love that I absolutely
[22:19] love that so that's back to your first
[22:21] question there's no typical day or
[22:22] typical week always what's the next
[22:24] thing what's the next thing within this
[22:26] big picture of I know I have these
[22:27] conference talks I know I have these
[22:29] Meetup talks I know I have these blogs
[22:31] know I have these videos and even I know
[22:33] I have these collaborations so that's
[22:34] one thing we're doing this year we have
[22:36] a set number of collabs that we're all
[22:38] expected to do where I need to find an
[22:40] engineer or devil at a completely
[22:42] different company and hey let's jump on
[22:43] a live stream together let's build some
[22:45] stuff together you'll take my product
[22:47] and I'll take your product we'll see
[22:48] what we can come up with together so
[22:50] that's exciting that's something I would
[22:51] never do as a developer so what's really
[22:53] neat to do that particularly when I
[22:55] emphasize networking so much hey talk to
[22:57] people connect with people here's an
[22:59] opportunity to take that networking and
[23:00] make something out of it that benefits
[23:02] not only me also my job so me enhancing
[23:06] my brand helps my job brand and those
[23:10] they just work
[23:12] together yeah and all these skills will
[23:15] make you a perfect popular YouTuber at
[23:19] some point you're gaining all the skills
[23:22] anyway when you're doing that and you're
[23:25] getting YouTube is hard work of editing
[23:28] work oh my gosh I this is a sidebar I
[23:31] have I bow to anyone who's doing a lot
[23:34] of YouTube and does all their own
[23:36] editing that is work particularly when
[23:38] you don't have just a consistent flow um
[23:41] that is a major
[23:42] work so I'm GNA bring back ourself to
[23:45] this one last question on Deal sure when
[23:49] you talk about a developer and their
[23:52] growth path like career path there's a
[23:56] kind of fix not fixed but there's
[23:58] there's so much that a developer can do
[24:01] when it comes to their growth so they
[24:03] could go from Junior to senior then they
[24:06] could become team leader they could
[24:08] become architect they could become a
[24:10] development manager they could also
[24:13] become product manager there's variety
[24:15] of option for a developer or their
[24:19] developer career what about devil do we
[24:22] have that kind of career path for de or
[24:25] is just still
[24:26] growing evolving yeah so
[24:29] great question I have not seen a
[24:31] consistent career path to say yes there
[24:33] is definitely this thing what I have
[24:35] seen is that great developer Advocates
[24:38] who have great engineering experience in
[24:41] their background can literally do
[24:43] anything as well so if I come up let's
[24:45] say you've done four to five years in
[24:47] engineering you've been pushing product
[24:49] across the wall you've been building
[24:51] right you're in the trenches you going
[24:53] to developer advocacy for some number of
[24:54] years you now have the combination of
[24:58] deep fingers into the market which many
[25:01] developers don't have right a a really
[25:04] good pulse on what's working what's not
[25:05] working what are people looking for the
[25:07] trend that companies are going for you
[25:09] have access to information that most
[25:11] developers either a aren't really
[25:13] interested in because they just want to
[25:14] get done with their stories for the
[25:16] Sprint or for the pi or they don't have
[25:19] time to really pay attention to because
[25:20] just not part of their job it's not part
[25:22] of what's going to make them great as a
[25:23] developer Advocate you have to know
[25:25] these things because again you're
[25:26] bringing information back to to the
[25:28] company to make the products better when
[25:30] you combine that level of business
[25:32] Acumen right real life business Acumen
[25:34] being out there with your existing
[25:36] engineering knowledge literally there's
[25:38] no limit of what you can do in a tech
[25:40] focused company right if you wanted to
[25:41] go into management that makes sense if
[25:43] you want to go into product that makes
[25:45] sense that was the pen that I left
[25:47] earlier shortly after I started a young
[25:49] man named yonas I forget his last name
[25:52] I'm so sorry yis but anyway he was one
[25:54] of our Founders he actually came back to
[25:56] the company and headed up product and of
[25:58] the first things that he did was says
[25:59] devil shouldn't be under marketing devil
[26:02] should be in product so he rolled our
[26:04] entire department under product so we
[26:06] are closely in line we do offsites even
[26:10] we did our on-site I mentioned back in
[26:12] January we had our meetings we were all
[26:14] together all the product folks all the
[26:15] dev folks that combination and so you
[26:18] can go on to lead I say that to say you
[26:19] can go on to lead product it would
[26:20] totally make sense I don't see that
[26:22] there is a limit CTO I don't see that
[26:24] there is a limit or even like Ryan
[26:26] Douglas run your own firm
[26:29] thank you thank you all right so let's
[26:33] keep
[26:34] going you work on FedEx for whole year
[26:37] as a full Tech developer and then you
[26:39] changed to this role so I want to touch
[26:42] what was the emotion how did that happen
[26:44] what was you thinking and uh what make
[26:47] you decide this great question because
[26:51] easily two two or so years in the FedEx
[26:54] maybe even three I just knew I was going
[26:56] to be an IC for the remainder of my
[26:57] career I was enjoying it it was
[26:59] something that I could learn and grow I
[27:01] like being in the large firm I like Pace
[27:04] I could see myself being I was at the
[27:05] mid level probably just shot being a
[27:07] senior developer being an architect or
[27:10] even just a team lead within our team
[27:12] and just writing it out into retirement
[27:14] that was what was my mindset was again
[27:16] I've only been in t point three years
[27:19] FedEx was four years I had one job at a
[27:21] retail firm for a year as a web
[27:23] developer prior to that so not a lot of
[27:25] time in Tech and I'm thinking yes I see
[27:28] I can do this for life this is great and
[27:30] then I found out at the time I'm doing a
[27:33] lot of helping of other people and I'm
[27:35] doing it through social media I'm doing
[27:37] it through making content on Tik Tok and
[27:40] other places I actually started on
[27:41] Instagram of all places then moved to
[27:43] Tik Tok making tons of tech content
[27:45] usually career focused sometimes
[27:47] technical focused had a small YouTube
[27:49] channel didn't really do much with that
[27:51] because again YouTube doing YouTube well
[27:53] for me was a lot of work and my stuff is
[27:55] just it's just really raw and Scrappy so
[27:58] that didn't work out so well but I was
[27:59] doing a lot of content I was doing a lot
[28:01] of developer involvement and I loved
[28:04] meet up in conferences so I ran a tech
[28:06] organization that I still advised called
[28:09] code connector we have I don't know
[28:11] maybe a thousand or so members on our
[28:12] site people we help and their Tech
[28:14] transitions I love working with
[28:16] community and I absolutely just inavate
[28:18] of going to conferences last year even
[28:20] got to speak at two I think two
[28:24] conferences yeah prior divid in two
[28:26] conferences in person and then one
[28:28] online so love com but I love doing
[28:30] these activities and I came to find out
[28:33] because I'm a big fan of Chris sea that
[28:36] there is a role where you do these
[28:38] things and get paid for it like whoa
[28:42] nobody told me which is totally my fault
[28:45] because one of my big mentors here in
[28:47] the local Memphis Area James Quick his
[28:49] first role out of college he went to
[28:50] Vanderbilt back in the day was working
[28:52] with Microsoft as a tech evangelist
[28:55] which was that incarnation in a way of
[28:57] what we called developer advocacy or
[28:59] developer relations or Dev day and I've
[29:01] known him forever but I just never made
[29:03] the association these things that I'm
[29:05] doing from five to nine I can do them
[29:08] from nine to five and get paid for it
[29:10] and so I went for one role didn't really
[29:12] know what I was doing didn't really ask
[29:14] for which advisement that's totally on
[29:15] me it didn't work out went for a second
[29:18] role what happened there they closed the
[29:20] role it was just no I take them back the
[29:22] first role was just closed the second
[29:23] one I got beat out for third one was
[29:26] with boded and I was super focused all
[29:29] of the advice that I give other people I
[29:31] took myself in terms of researching
[29:33] company researching the team and do all
[29:35] the questions that ask I knew what they
[29:36] were working on what the next steps were
[29:38] it was almost as if I worked there
[29:41] before I worked there I had a nice
[29:43] Litany of experiences to show hey here
[29:46] are the conference talks that I've given
[29:47] here are some blogs that I've written
[29:49] here are some videos that I've done
[29:51] here's the things that show I'm somewhat
[29:53] in that space already I just don't have
[29:55] the title and that's what I always
[29:57] suggest suggest to people is one of the
[29:59] easiest ways to get hired for something
[30:01] is to show you're already doing those
[30:03] things correctly but I found out that
[30:05] there was a way to get paid to doing the
[30:07] things that I enjoy already and so I was
[30:09] all it completely changed my trajectory
[30:12] because I said I was going to be an i an
[30:14] individual contributor for life but
[30:16] finding this new information out when
[30:18] you learn better you do better so you
[30:20] act on the new
[30:21] information I'm going to ask you a
[30:23] slightly personal question you was
[30:25] working at FedEx um and FedEx is an
[30:28] amazing company I have many friends in
[30:31] Florida Orlando who are working in FedEx
[30:33] so I know how good is that company and
[30:36] it's a company that you could have
[30:37] retired for you went to another company
[30:40] which closed off and I'm guessing you
[30:43] lost the job what was the emotion at
[30:46] that time you left a solid company and
[30:48] then now you don't have a job oh
[30:51] actually I said in Reverse so my very
[30:52] first job so this was coming from
[30:54] restaurant industry into Tech my very
[30:56] first job was at a place called fr RS
[30:59] breads Dollar Store I actually tweeted
[31:00] about this some weeks ago and I worked
[31:03] that for about 9 months and they went
[31:05] bankrupt they would absolutely bankrupt
[31:08] and my emotions were complete petting
[31:10] that was not something I saw coming
[31:12] things looked shaky for a while but they
[31:15] look shaky for so long that you're
[31:17] almost numb to it it wasn't like things
[31:19] all of a sudden took a bad turn like for
[31:22] easily six of the nine months things
[31:24] always looked a little shaky a little
[31:26] weird and so you just be kind of kind of
[31:28] internalize that like that's part of the
[31:29] culture but when it actually happened
[31:32] and HR was going from person to person
[31:34] calling us in say bring your laptop just
[31:38] leave it there here's your sheet here's
[31:40] your that was not fun that was not fun
[31:42] at all because I'm not just a single guy
[31:44] out here on my own I have a wife I have
[31:46] children mortgage car there's things
[31:49] that depend on my income to keep going
[31:51] and now I have no income that wasn't
[31:54] cool at all the only saving grace for me
[31:56] was the fact that
[31:58] probably two or three months into the
[32:00] job that started there in June yeah two
[32:02] or three months in I realized that I was
[32:06] the only developer in a marketing team
[32:08] at Freds I wasn't actually in the IT
[32:11] department or in the developer of the
[32:12] engineering department and I didn't feel
[32:14] like my growth was really growing at all
[32:16] pretty much everything I was learning I
[32:17] was teaching myself I didn't have a
[32:19] senan engineer I reported to I reported
[32:21] to the marketing manager who couldn't
[32:23] con a lick so I'm like I need to do
[32:25] something else or I'm going to be
[32:26] stagnant here like I'm very appreciative
[32:28] of this job I'm no longer flipping
[32:30] burgers I'm no longer up till 5:00 a.m.
[32:32] closing down the burger stand down the
[32:34] street from the college I'm now in tech
[32:36] one of the tech people but I'm not
[32:38] growing so as quickly as I could while I
[32:41] was working in my first tech job I also
[32:43] enrolled in a boot camp which just kind
[32:46] tuna like why are you going to a boot
[32:47] camp and you're already in Tech because
[32:49] I recognize for me and I say this on
[32:52] Twitter so much you have to analyze you
[32:55] every person wherever you are I don't
[32:56] care if you're thinking about getting
[32:57] into Tech or you're a super principal
[33:00] architect at the top you have to be
[33:02] able to honestly analyze you and I knew
[33:05] even with all the excitement of being in
[33:07] Tech now I wasn't growing all at all not
[33:09] a lake so as quickly as I could I got
[33:11] enrolled into a camp gr Camp was called
[33:13] launch code I learned a ton that was
[33:17] where I learned Python and SQL and Java
[33:20] and spring Boot and also was able to
[33:22] work even closer with the mentor I
[33:24] mentioned James Quick who was also a
[33:28] senior engineer at FedEx and gave me my
[33:32] referral to even get there in the first
[33:33] place this is how those things work when
[33:36] I enrolled in the boot camp I had no
[33:38] idea I would need his referral six seven
[33:40] months down the road I had no idea and
[33:43] so that's the networking thing isn't
[33:45] always that you meet this person to get
[33:46] this objective you meet the people to be
[33:48] a good person and have a positive
[33:50] exchange knowing that after you do that
[33:53] a number of times there are so many
[33:55] little opportunities you may not even
[33:57] know about or conceive right now that
[33:59] may open themselves up in the future
[34:01] it's the long game and the long game
[34:03] played out and so when I was laid off we
[34:07] were probably two months shy of
[34:10] finishing the boot camp instantly just
[34:12] went applying redo my resume applying
[34:14] everywhere trying to figure out who do I
[34:15] know I wasn't great at networking in
[34:18] Tech but I was getting better at that
[34:19] point starting to reach out to people
[34:21] that I've met asking for referrals
[34:23] asking for this and I asked James
[34:25] because I knew at one time fed was all
[34:28] CS degree only right you had to have the
[34:30] degree I said would you even ask to see
[34:33] what the manager consider he asked came
[34:35] back with the answer she said she would
[34:36] be willing to consider at my
[34:39] recommendation that's all I need to hear
[34:41] and we went from there so to answer your
[34:43] question the emotions ran high because
[34:46] when things when you're responsible for
[34:47] things and you're a responsible person
[34:49] you feel that and it's real and it's
[34:51] probably a good thing you feel that but
[34:53] the way you respond to it is what makes
[34:55] the difference right you don't want to
[34:56] succumb to the pressure I think even
[34:58] having having things to challenge our
[35:01] mental state I'm not saying your mental
[35:02] health per se but that challenge your
[35:04] mental state depending on how you
[35:06] respond to it can make you stronger and
[35:08] better and capable of handling bigger
[35:10] problems right that's like the
[35:11] difference between our Junior engineers
[35:13] and our senior Engineers Junior
[35:14] Engineers are delivered small problems
[35:17] and as they fix those small problems
[35:19] they develop confidence and more skill
[35:21] sets to hand handle bigger problem you
[35:23] don't get small problems to stay a a
[35:25] small problem solver for the of your
[35:28] Tech Career you get that to develop the
[35:30] skills the AC and the confidence that I
[35:31] can handle bigger things life is a lot
[35:34] like that and when we get all different
[35:37] little problems the thing is you're
[35:39] going to feel it you're going to feel
[35:40] the emotions you're going to cry yell
[35:42] punch the wall all those things but then
[35:45] you need to be able to respond in a way
[35:48] to figure out what approach can I take
[35:50] to solve this knowing that when I solve
[35:52] this thing that solution and even
[35:55] arriving to the solution is going to
[35:57] give me different skill sets within my
[36:00] person that will be useful for bigger
[36:02] problems down the road and that's what
[36:04] we call growth that's what we call a
[36:05] chur running from them or always looking
[36:08] for a way around them is a way to make
[36:10] sure you never mature which means at 20
[36:13] and 40 you're not capable of handling
[36:16] things of any increasing difficulty
[36:18] whatsoever because you continue to run
[36:20] and shirt from them and so it hurt it
[36:22] wasn't fun but I had to deal with it in
[36:24] the moment and I just went hard I just
[36:26] which is the only way I know do things I
[36:28] just go hard go all out like I said I
[36:30] don't know how many rums for my first
[36:32] tech job it was around 200ish resumés I
[36:35] have no idea when I was laid off because
[36:37] I have no job and there was no big
[36:38] Severance they went bankrupt so that was
[36:41] it I'm looking at savings and savings I
[36:44] was working part-time jobs I got on with
[36:46] a tip company and I was installing
[36:48] computers somewhere just make sure there
[36:50] some some kind of income coming in
[36:52] anything I can do to get keep the ship
[36:54] afloat I was doing and then like I said
[36:56] once again the girl from James came
[36:58] through with that interview process and
[37:02] I think before we even graduated from
[37:04] the boot camp I started my first day at
[37:07] FedEx the best first day ever by the way
[37:09] because my entire orc was on a picnic
[37:11] that day so imagine that first day at
[37:14] fex I'm wearing shorts and a t-shirt
[37:15] we're playing volleyball and EA
[37:17] Barbecue Lawrence you have made multiple
[37:21] career change from your job at
[37:24] restaurant frying B Burgers to this
[37:28] company then FedEx and then now devil
[37:32] and I know that even just a slight
[37:35] change from a developer to a team leader
[37:38] or from a team leader to a manager it in
[37:42] many cases start from a scratch type
[37:45] thing and you have done in completely
[37:48] different industry completely different
[37:50] type of uh job so how does it feel and
[37:54] how are you able to do that many
[37:58] reinvention of yourself yeah yeah I
[38:02] think the first thing is it just means
[38:03] I'm
[38:05] old we go and with putot that out there
[38:07] because we haven't even talked about
[38:08] everything we don't even have time no we
[38:10] don't have time to get into everything
[38:11] because I had a whole in between my 17
[38:14] years in the restaurant industry or
[38:15] hospitality industry I had a five years
[38:18] sent in Supply Chain management where I
[38:20] worked as to your point I came in as a
[38:23] forklift driver who had never driven a
[38:26] forklift before in my life I became the
[38:28] best forklift driver I learned all the
[38:30] oosha rules I wrote down our first
[38:32] inventory list for our brand new
[38:33] Warehouse all on paper wrote it out giv
[38:36] someone to put in Excel next team leader
[38:38] next supply chain analyst next analyst
[38:41] and nighttime warehouse manager all
[38:43] within five years and I got my degree I
[38:45] got a Bachelor's degree in general
[38:47] business all in five years so number one
[38:50] is I'm old but probably the bigger point
[38:53] is I just have
[38:54] certain basic philosophies that I carry
[38:57] with me throughout all of life very
[38:59] basic philosophy these are just
[39:01] unchanging fundamentals that I live on
[39:04] as sure as this chair can support my
[39:07] weight or as sure as the Earth is
[39:09] spinning I have these core principles
[39:12] one comes from my faith and I'll share
[39:14] that I am a Christian I understand
[39:15] that's not everyone's cup of tea but I
[39:16] have to share that because it's part of
[39:18] my story and I'm going to give the
[39:19] interview and so one of those precepts
[39:22] or presuppositions is the idea that I
[39:24] can do all things through Christ who
[39:26] strengthens me so I believe I have a
[39:28] faith that if I'm doing the things I
[39:30] should be doing there is a higher power
[39:33] that will help me do it if I'm doing the
[39:35] things I should not be doing there's
[39:37] probably a lower power that will help me
[39:39] do that as well probably and so I try to
[39:42] do the right things for myself for my
[39:44] family for my community as often as
[39:45] possible not Miss Goody Two Shoes I have
[39:48] a halo over my circle and I'm floating
[39:51] nothing weird like that just doing the
[39:53] right thing by people I believe that I'm
[39:55] supported the other part are
[39:58] suppositions like if one person has
[40:00] learned it and done it there's nothing
[40:02] about me that I can't learn it and do it
[40:04] as well that's really important some
[40:06] people might call that growth mindset
[40:08] I've never really related to that phrase
[40:10] I just believe if it's been done there's
[40:13] nothing about me that can't do it as
[40:14] well nothing I don't care if it's being
[40:17] a developer supply chain restaurant
[40:19] president of the United States if a
[40:21] person a regular human being has done it
[40:24] there's nothing about me that can't do
[40:26] it as well I I need to a figure out what
[40:29] steps they took because success leaves
[40:31] Clues that's one of the phrases that I
[40:33] get from Tony Robins that a person that
[40:35] is successful and we can find a general
[40:37] group of people who are successful in
[40:38] the thing the way that they got there
[40:40] there will be clues that I can learn
[40:42] from finding out which of those Clues
[40:44] back to my earlier Point can apply to me
[40:47] some things that they did I can't do so
[40:49] if they had a father who donates
[40:52] $100,000 a year to Harvard and that's
[40:54] how they got into Harvard I can't do
[40:56] that that's not part of of me but what
[40:58] do they learn in Harvard and are there
[41:00] other ways that I can learn those things
[41:01] on my own in my sphere I'm as
[41:04] knowledgeable and kable as they are see
[41:06] that's how you apply the clues to your
[41:08] own personal life so my faith pre
[41:11] presuppositions or we call just thought
[41:14] experiments or fundamental philosophies
[41:17] that's really important and the idea
[41:18] that if it's been done then there's
[41:20] nothing about me that I cannot do it as
[41:22] well and so I could completely pivot
[41:24] again like at one time I considered
[41:26] consulting which that didn't work out
[41:28] but I can pivot again like literally
[41:30] right now at 50ish years old I can do it
[41:33] again and the age is not important
[41:35] because my mind still works I keep it
[41:36] active I stay busy I stay involved I
[41:38] stay in tune what's going on I stay just
[41:42] young enough so that I'm not too out of
[41:44] touch with the advancements of
[41:45] Technology since technology advances
[41:48] absolutely everything and those basic
[41:51] fundamental thoughts are the things that
[41:52] help me to be successful one of the
[41:54] biggest things that I dig into in many
[41:56] of my one ones I'm not sure I do a lot
[41:58] of coaching on top mate and it's usually
[42:01] how do I get in Tech how do I get in
[42:02] Tech or I'm trying to learn to code I'm
[42:04] getting stuff I go back to the
[42:06] fundamentals of their thought processes
[42:09] like do you believe you're capable of
[42:11] learning if so tell me how do you know
[42:13] you can learn how do you know you can
[42:15] learn new
[42:17] things I've never thought about that I
[42:19] know if you don't have a base philosophy
[42:21] that you can learn new things then you
[42:24] go to learn code that subconscious is
[42:26] preventing this thing from happening you
[42:27] have to address those inner things first
[42:30] it's those inner thoughts that often
[42:32] times control our outer actions so the
[42:34] inner work has to come first for
[42:37] learning for growing for relating for
[42:39] being open to people and for in turn
[42:42] receiving things back from you that work
[42:44] that you put out that comes from that
[42:45] inner man or that inner woman it will be
[42:47] reflected in what comes back to
[42:50] you thank you my friend we started
[42:53] talking about this topic how you are
[42:56] able to reinvent yourself so many time
[42:59] and you gave the core drive that you
[43:03] have that helped you do all this and you
[43:06] have tried different thing and You' have
[43:08] done different thing you have mentioned
[43:11] your age couple of times so just so you
[43:14] feel better I'm
[43:16] 51 all right I knew I like you for a
[43:20] reason there's a second
[43:24] one and I've done different things but
[43:27] mostly in Tech and mostly in the
[43:31] horizontal as well as vertical but
[43:34] within few companies or endtoend
[43:36] software development I would
[43:38] say and one thing that I love love love
[43:42] about myself me is I'm one of the best
[43:46] person to take a project to the finish
[43:49] lane and I'm so proud of it and bring
[43:53] people together I can find the gaps I
[43:55] can fill the gaps by I identifying
[43:58] exactly who to bring to that situation
[44:02] or what to do in that situation and then
[44:05] move the people a step by step to
[44:08] whatever Finish Line that we are
[44:11] targeting think I have a similar skill
[44:13] I've always called it I'm decent with
[44:16] details but I'm great at pulling back
[44:18] and seeing the big picture to find the
[44:20] gaps and it's something even like with
[44:22] code connector it happened so many times
[44:24] we'll be in a meeting we're talking
[44:26] about one thing we're trying to figure
[44:28] it out and everyone has a different idea
[44:29] I can always pull like at the right time
[44:33] like I'll stay in the details for as
[44:34] long as possible but then at the right
[44:36] time I can tell when I come into a
[44:37] solution I can pull back and see oh wait
[44:39] a minute this isn't working because we
[44:41] have a this is missing we haven't even
[44:43] considered this so we just fix this
[44:45] it'll fix our solution and probably two
[44:47] or three things more always been able to
[44:49] do that I don't even know where that
[44:50] comes from maybe it was when we were
[44:52] born I'm August 2nd 1972 how about you a
[44:57] April 20 close enough yes ail
[45:01] 1943 okay I saw you post about you you
[45:05] will be a speaker and I also saw saw a
[45:08] post about when you met with Denny in
[45:12] Dallas and that was one of the best FS
[45:14] talking about networking and how you
[45:17] invested and without any outcome you
[45:22] invested in this relationship and then
[45:24] it turning into something where it
[45:27] helping you with the I believe the
[45:29] company that you was AB abolutely
[45:32] yep yeah that's so true yeah Danny and I
[45:35] met so many years ago at a Meetup the
[45:37] Meetup of the organization I mentioned
[45:38] earlier Co connector we met there and uh
[45:41] be friended each other and work with
[45:42] each other like you read in the tweet
[45:44] and at that time clearly I had no idea
[45:48] that at least five years later he would
[45:50] be in a position to invite me to a
[45:52] Meetup so I have a certain number of
[45:53] meetups and talks I have to do this year
[45:55] that's a requirement
[45:57] if then maybe it's a requirement for my
[45:59] job and things have been coming in
[46:01] slowly I don't know if it's just
[46:03] pandemic or they don't know me or
[46:04] whatever things are they're coming but
[46:06] they're coming slowly but my
[46:07] relationship to Danny opened up the
[46:09] possibility to have my very first one
[46:11] one done check off we can add that to
[46:13] the list which was awesome and he made
[46:15] it says I'm in the Java world he made
[46:16] that night an entire night of java so I
[46:19] was able to hear more about the
[46:20] technology ecosystem that I'm a part of
[46:22] from other speakers in the Dallas area
[46:25] that was really awesome but I think
[46:26] that's just the way to go it's
[46:28] transactional but it's not an immediate
[46:30] transaction and I think there's a huge
[46:33] difference because so many DMS that I
[46:36] get on Twitter and Instagram and even
[46:38] LinkedIn are immediate transaction
[46:41] immediately transaction seeking hi
[46:43] Lawrence I heard you on this space and
[46:45] then they go for the ass or hi Lawrence
[46:47] I really like this or that and they go
[46:49] for the ass and I really I don't operate
[46:52] like that I need to have a relationship
[46:54] and a friendship and it's going to take
[46:55] some time and so this like I said it's
[46:58] taken five years not that it took him
[46:59] five years it's just the opportunity
[47:01] just happened to happen now and things
[47:03] come together and I have lots of little
[47:05] things that I could mention that where
[47:07] things just come together that way that
[47:08] you never would even know even speaking
[47:12] at Dev Nexus which is in two weeks
[47:14] that's in Atlanta long story short I
[47:17] spoke at connect Tech in October during
[47:21] one of the lunches rather than sitting
[47:22] with people I know I specifically sat
[47:24] with people I didn't know just a t table
[47:26] random folks and we're just talking and
[47:29] talking I'm really nervous because fun
[47:31] fact I'm actually truly introverted and
[47:34] shy both of those are different shy has
[47:37] to do with isue willness to talk to
[47:38] strangers and things like that
[47:39] introverted has to do with your energy
[47:41] levels I have both but I forced myself
[47:44] out of that because that's what's
[47:46] required for my role and sometimes you
[47:48] have to push past those mental blocks to
[47:51] get opportunities you didn't even know
[47:52] were coming coming long story short at
[47:55] the table unbeknownst to me was a person
[47:59] who reviews the cfp the call for papers
[48:02] this is back in October he reviews the
[48:04] calls for papers for Dev Nexus which is
[48:06] in April I was able to talk to him get a
[48:09] nice friendly jokey relationship name
[48:12] Dro myself a couple of times name Dro My
[48:14] talk a couple of times have him say wait
[48:16] a minute I don't remember seeing that
[48:17] one and I didn't ask please accept me I
[48:21] just put the fact out there that I
[48:22] applied here's my name here's my name
[48:25] title then we just kept talking and it's
[48:26] joking and talking being wor I have to
[48:29] believe that had some impact on a brand
[48:32] new developer Advocate who most people
[48:34] in Java world do not know from Adam or
[48:37] Eve to get selected for the largest Java
[48:39] conference in the world it had to be
[48:43] connected I may or may not even ask him
[48:45] but I'll just continue to be the decent
[48:46] person that I try to be interact with
[48:48] him on Instagram Twitter wherever he
[48:50] might be found hopefully I can go to the
[48:52] Atlanta Java USIC group meet up sometime
[48:54] but that's how those things work you put
[48:56] yourself out there enough you open up
[48:59] doors that you didn't even know were
[49:01] existed yep and again the third thing
[49:04] common between you and I is I'm also
[49:07] introvert and shy super shy oh no way
[49:10] but you're
[49:12] everywhere I hope I have that ability to
[49:16] keep talking and you any beginning of
[49:18] this discussion you said I'm very
[49:19] concise because because after speaking
[49:23] for certain seconds and minute and lose
[49:26] the energy and I go back to my shell
[49:29] gotcha gotcha but it works well because
[49:31] people don't get a lot of fluff they get
[49:33] the an they get the Nugget they need and
[49:35] no no fluff so I like that I like
[49:38] concise
[49:39] communication we had a lot of discussion
[49:42] around so many other topic especially
[49:44] around deil your journey and obviously
[49:47] with so long like you said we both are
[49:51] very old so if we try to cover
[49:53] everything in one hour that's not a
[49:55] possibility but I think We Touch many
[49:58] emotions many of the key pieces I will
[50:01] ask one last question around this top
[50:03] this topic if you have to highlight one
[50:06] or two thing from your long journey that
[50:10] was either the defining moment or
[50:13] something that other people can learn
[50:15] from what would be
[50:17] that one thing my one thing would have
[50:22] to
[50:22] be
[50:24] gratitude and in in my spefic specific
[50:27] case it is my gratitude for the way that
[50:29] I was raised by my parents Lawrence
[50:31] lockart senior and my mom Emma lockart
[50:35] um they did an amazing job and it's just
[50:38] interesting that even after I left high
[50:40] school went off to college it completely
[50:42] bombed out we hav got into that story we
[50:43] don't have time for that story but I
[50:45] completely fin I completely bobbed out
[50:49] horribly the way that they raised me it
[50:51] was like it was a base to always go back
[50:53] to regardless of how far I strayed from
[50:57] the path and the road there was always
[50:59] this loving base to go back to and that
[51:02] amongst everything else with a
[51:04] foundation that give me what it needs to
[51:06] be able to succeed after failing in this
[51:08] and failing in that and having a car
[51:09] repossession and and losing a job and
[51:12] all those different things we have to
[51:13] we're have to do another show we'll just
[51:15] do it the failure show people think we
[51:17] get on these podcasts and things and
[51:19] everything has been everything has not
[51:21] been Rosy for me I've had probably had
[51:23] more failures than successes we just
[51:25] don't talk about them as much but having
[51:27] to your question having that loving base
[51:29] my gratitude for that even to today is
[51:32] Paramount it is the foundation of all
[51:35] success and when I hear people who do
[51:37] not have that kind of thing my heart
[51:38] goes out to them trying to see not be a
[51:40] parent but can I just be a friend and
[51:42] provide some of those kind of social
[51:44] type resources that you need that you
[51:45] may have missed from not having parents
[51:48] always were there always were loving
[51:50] always we caring always we're giving
[51:53] even to this day well I I'll will never
[51:56] be able to express enough gratitude for
[51:58] that they actually are the example of
[52:01] where I've got the whole idea that it's
[52:02] never too late that that didn't start
[52:04] with me that was F because my dad got
[52:07] his bachelor's degree in mechanical
[52:08] engineering from San Francisco State in
[52:10] his late 30s I think while he was
[52:14] working in a warehouse called
[52:15] International Harvester and my mom got
[52:16] her bachelor's degree in education from
[52:18] Jackson State in her 50s I think so we
[52:22] just age and success it's just there's
[52:24] no connection either you want it or you
[52:27] don't if you do stop talking about it
[52:30] and just go get
[52:31] it and one thing that I truly believe
[52:35] that yes our success help us go further
[52:39] but the tough time that we have seen and
[52:42] the tough time that we have overcome
[52:45] give us the more strength to keep going
[52:49] when we are facing similar tough time in
[52:51] future 100%
[52:53] yes Lawrence was great discussion I know
[52:57] I'm over time so last three question is
[53:03] there any question that I have not asked
[53:05] but you want to
[53:07] answer no that was good I think that was
[53:10] good that was a nice organic discussion
[53:12] so no you didn't but I would love to do
[53:14] this again maybe in a year or so and
[53:15] just do a catch up because I think we
[53:17] can go a completely different direction
[53:18] it have just as much maybe we do the
[53:21] failure one next yeah is there any
[53:25] question for me yes I didn't know about
[53:28] this podcast I'm so sad about for that
[53:31] you do you advertise this or do you
[53:32] mention this on your Twitter often
[53:34] because I think it's the only place I
[53:35] follow you currently on Twitter I do but
[53:38] not that much and I think my entire
[53:41] Journey has been to discover myself and
[53:45] gain the clarity for myself that exactly
[53:47] what I will be helping as again as you
[53:50] were saying we have lot of experience in
[53:53] this last 51 years so there are so many
[53:56] things that I can help with and I want
[53:58] to nail down to exactly what that will
[54:01] be now I know what the entry point will
[54:04] be and then how I can get take the
[54:07] person to a more deeper transformation
[54:10] MH but it took me almost to three years
[54:13] to nail down that I started with
[54:14] quarterly planning then time management
[54:18] then project management then so many
[54:20] things that I have spoken about and now
[54:23] I'm trying to bring all of them together
[54:25] so my how will do in a month or
[54:27] something that as a developer or a new
[54:32] startup you need Vis strategy and
[54:36] tactics and how you can combine this to
[54:41] number one to develop your own career or
[54:44] if you have a company then it applies to
[54:46] a company and project as well so I'm
[54:49] getting there I will get there in a
[54:51] month or so and I think I have to cut
[54:53] down couple of activities but I have
[54:55] YouTube and Link then then short form
[54:58] then long form then
[55:01] guides so because multiple thing a
[55:05] podcast is just a tiny piece sure and I
[55:10] only can promote few times so right now
[55:14] I do a 3 P.M clip every day and that
[55:18] clip has uh link to the podcast okay
[55:21] great I have a lot of episodes to catch
[55:22] up on so seeing the comments on YouTube
[55:24] I see you doing it on YouTube and
[55:27] Spotify oh yeah yeah so I upload YouTube
[55:30] and then I upload to this software name
[55:33] anchor which is by sptify now okay so
[55:37] it's called Spotify podcast or something
[55:40] so I upload there and it is spread to
[55:42] everywhere nice so all right I have some
[55:45] catching up to do you've got I see you
[55:47] have a ton of great guests so thank
[55:49] blessed to be in list thanks again for
[55:51] the invite and then the season two is
[55:54] developer only season one was anybody
[55:57] and there was so many great people that
[55:59] I have met and their Journey was amazing
[56:02] yeah a awesome looking forward to it man
[56:06] all right so last question what's your
[56:09] message to the
[56:11] audience all right ah what is my message
[56:15] to the audience today what have we
[56:17] talked we've talked about so much
[56:19] whatever you want if it is of good go
[56:23] for
[56:24] it just be mindful not hurt people on
[56:27] your way there that's it that's the
[56:31] tweet all right thank you so much uh
[56:34] Lawrence for